v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Boats up to 15' for oars, power or sail. Please include the boat type in your question.
Jaysen
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v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by Jaysen » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:55 am

I'm getting close. I have a few questions based on some of my plans, mistakes, and uncertainty.

1. I want to add a "bulkhead" of sorts in the bow. It will be used to hold flotation foam and provide some hooks for dry-ish storage (off the hull). I am planning to deck the bow from the mast partner forward. Here's the question: How should the work considering there is a bow eye in there? My thought is that the bulkhead would need to be forward of the eye OR I'd need to provide some type of access to the nuts holding the eye in (pvc tube).

2. I've decided that I don't like the rub rails i've created, but I'm going to move forward to get Lil Bit in the water. I'd like to do a slotted rub rail but in other posts it's been stated that the rub rails are "structurally significant" on the V10/12. What function are they playing and what is the max slot size recommended for the V10/12 rails? Are there areas that MUST be solid?

3. Dagger trunk/hull slot closing for muddy areas... I will be dragging Lil Bit through some mud. I'm pretty sure that trunk will wind up accumulating quite a bit of mud. Should I plan a closure that would be part of the dagger board that will reduce the mud getting into the trunk?

4. I believe the graphite bottom needs to go to the water line and not too much above it. Short of floating her in a calm body somewhere, how do I calculate the water line given the extra weight of full glass on hull, floatation foam, and "dumb newby" tricks (I'm WAY heavy on epoxy)?

5. Glassing seats... It is unclear exactly what I need to glass on the seats. I think it is just the upper sides along hull thanks to the cleats on the undersides. Does the dagger trunk get glassed on the BOTTOM of the mid seat as well?



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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by terrulian » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:16 pm

#1 I don't think I understand the problem. If you want the bulkhead to provide a flotation area, how are you going to access the hooks you mention? In my V10 there is a bulkhead with a hatch on the top of the bow seat, and two more on the stern seat. The area is not filled with foam but the hatch is presumably watertight so in the event of a capsize, it should remain dry enough to provide flotation together with the hatches in the stern. Plus, wood floats anyway so I don't think the boat will sink even if these hatches are compromised. So I have storage in both areas. I think you want to be able to access those nuts, in any case.

#2 Not sure what you don't like about your rubrails or gunwales. The historical function of inwales, constructed with spaces between them, inboard of the sheer, was to trim the inboard tops of the ribs of the boat and provide a seat for the cap rail. The slots resulted from the spaces between the ribs. Image
But we don't use ribs in the same way on Jacques' boats. In his boats, the "slotted" inwales would function in two ways: one, to provide a handhold and place to tie lines, and two, when you lift the boat on its side, the spaces between the blocks will facilitate drainage. In regard to the structural function of both inwales and rubrails, which are the same thing except mounted, respectively, inboard and outboard on the sheer, they provide rigidity to the hull. Before you installed them, a shear stress would distort the shape of the hull, but with with them it is very solid. But inwale/outwale both provide this same rigidity. If you don't like the look of the gunwales on the exterior, I'm not sure how you're going to remove them but it sounds like an ugly job. Yours are on the outside, so making what you call a slotted rub rail, often called an inwale, would just amount to installing blocks every few inches on the inboard side of the top of the hull, and then gluing or screwing another piece of, say, 3/8" plywood inboard of them. If it were me, I'd want more than just the 1/4" plywood edge of the hull at the top of the sheer. I'd create another layer either outboard or inboard, then the blocks, and then, say, 3/8" plywood to form in inwale. The boat on the left gives an example: Image

#3 I've never seen a closure to protect a daggerboard on any boat. Maybe it exists, but it sounds like a bad idea. It complicates things tremendously. How would it be opened/closed? What if it jammed? You can ask Salvatore who built an Adelie 16. He often beaches his boat and you could question him about the ingress of mud and sand. viewtopic.php?t=58851 I've sailed and beached dinghies with daggerboards and I don't remember ever being bothered by it.

#4 The epoxy/graphite is for physical protection from rocks and sand when you beach the boat. It doesn't provide any anti-fouling protection. So its placement relative to the waterline is not a consideration. What you want is to make sure that the areas that will be dragged on the beach will have the graphite. Other than that, it is just aesthetics. If you are going to keep the boat in the water you'll need anti-fouling, which will be abraded from the boat when beaching, requiring re-painting at some point. If you want to find the waterline for either aesthetic or anti-fouling purposes, on a small boat like this it will change a lot, every time you move or add/subtract a crew member. I believe the plans show the design waterline, right? You can use those, or, as you suggest, put it in the water with an average load and mark them. Then take a water level and transfer the measurements along the hull. Alternatively, you can use the method described here by Lou Sauzedde, a knowledgeable and entertaining boatwright. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoi2E05zDU

#5 Pretty sure the plans do not call for glassing the seat tops. Their edges should be taped to the hull. I glassed the tops of mine to minimize abrasion, particularly because I left them clear. If you glass them, any errant object dropped on them won't penetrate the glass, creating an avenue for water intrusion and inevitable staining. This is entirely an aesthetic consideration. If you don't glass the seat tops and they get dinged, so what? You've got 2-3 coats of paint, another 2-3 of epoxy, then marine plywood. Without doing anything but that, the seats will almost certainly outlive you. There is absolutely no reason I can think of to glass the seat bottoms. With regard to the daggerboard trunk, follow Jacques' instructions but you do want the connection between the trunk and the seat very solid. Even if he doesn't call for glass there, I'd be tempted to tape the bottom of the daggerboard trunk to the seat bottom. The daggerboard is a lever-arm and it wants to be rock solid in case you run into the bottom down there in the sea.
Last edited by terrulian on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by jacquesmm » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:24 pm

Thank you, good answers.

Let's not try to re-invent the wheel. Sailboats exist since the beginning of civilization and things like rubrails, inwales, daggerboard trunks have evolved to become better, more efficient.

I do not specify glass on the seats. They are stiff enough as designed.
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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by Jaysen » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:32 pm

Tony, thanks for the answer. As to my thinking and where the questions originate....

1. There is no front seat on the sail versions. That's kind of where I'm stuck scratching my head. After staring at this a bit over lunch, I think what I need to do is get everything else done then look at how to add more floatation. I'm sure once all the parts are fit (but not glued) something will click for me.

2. I see the problem. I thought the slotted inwales was replacing the rub rail. This is one of those things that I will use my "new builder is stupid" card to explain. My not liking what I have is more about me disliking the result. I guess I need to get her in the water and then decide if I need to add a slotted rail.

3. This was me over thinking. i agree with the complication. I did look on line but didn't see anything discussion daggerboards and mud flats. My google-foo may be weak. This is another thing I need to let ride and see how it turns out.

4. Not looking for anti fouling. i guess that means form chine to chine (and maybe a bit more just to be safe). No idea where the water line thought came from. It's in my notes but ... Maybe there was rum involved?

5. I used "glass" when I should have said "tape". I'm trying to figure out how to tape around the cleats. The same is true of the trunk. It has cleats that support the seat which makes be wonder how I tape that properly. Hope that makes sense.

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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by Jaysen » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:40 pm

jacquesmm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:24 pm
Thank you, good answers.

Let's not try to re-invent the wheel. Sailboats exist since the beginning of civilization and things like rubrails, inwales, daggerboard trunks have evolved to become better, more efficient.

I do not specify glass on the seats. They are stiff enough as designed.
Jacques, not questioning the design. As you can see from my reply to Tony, I'm very much willing to hear that I'm way off the mark. I think my reply to him covers most of the issues (at least the ones that are me bing stupid). The only thing I'm not sure on is the tape of the seats to hull (and mid to dagger trunk). I've glassed the trunk to hull as indicated, but there is nothing in the notes about the seats.

Maybe I'm just too used to putting some type of FG over every seam...

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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by terrulian » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:45 am

You don't really need to put tape over the cleats as long as the seats are securely glued to them, and they to the hull. As you imply, getting the tape to conform to the three 90-degree turns around the cleats will be impossible without fairing and filleting the joints.

To strengthen the connection between seats and hull, which contributes to the structural rigidity of the boat, you can put tape between the top edges of the seats and the hull. I think the plans call for this and that's what I did.
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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by Jaysen » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:33 am

Adding here to keep info together...

Jacques, I'm having trouble seeing how the mast partners components go together.

1. Lower partner sits inside hull.
2. Upper sits over rub rail.
3. Units are glued together.

I see no specification for cleats on the lower unit. Is the process to precut, then glue the units together using the overhang of the upper to support the lower?

Is there an value to "flattening" the rub rail/hull where the upper overlaps to create less gap?

Thanks.

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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by Jaysen » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:12 pm

Bump.

Still puzzled by how the partner should be attached.

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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by jacquesmm » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:27 pm

I will post a drawing on Monday but I think it is on the plans. It is exactly as you say: partner in two layers, one layer between the sides, the seond one on top and that means on top of the rubrail.
Fill the gaps with putty or bevel the 2nd layer.
The 1st layer can sit on cleats if you want but fillets underneath are sufficient.
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Re: v12 sail version - general questions for final stages

Post by Jaysen » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:34 pm

That is Jacques. No need for a drawing. The fillet/cleat comment is what I needed.

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