knottyBuoyz III The TW28 Project

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laporter
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Post by laporter » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:58 am

Hi Jacques

We're not really in a very competitive market in this neck of the woods for boat parts. I know I can do better if I package up systems like this and run a competitive bid process. What this helps to illustrate is a "Worst Case Scenario" for the planning process so I know it'll get better. I just don't want any big surprises. Been keeping an eye on e-bay as well for stuff that'll work as well. Don't really see too many bargains there though.

There is a boat building co-op in Ontario though and I'm waiting to hear from a couple of its members if it's worth joining or not.

I worked on the hardware/plumbing/electrical lists last night and was shocked at what those numbers are!!!!

On the brighter side, my brother is a furniture/cabinet maker and I have 5000 board feet of N/A Black Cherry curing for all the interior furnishings and trim work so that'll make the whole project that much more reasonable. It's gonna be a damn nice boat.


Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Why they cost so much

Post by laporter » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:19 pm

I think I'm getting a better handle on why boats cost so much. I've just completed the first version of my project spreadsheet listing every item req'd to complete our TW28 project. Further revisions will refine the estimate . What I did was create a "worst case" scenario and used retail advertised prices for every item. Now before you jump all over me I know I'm going to be able to realize a lot of economy by:
  • Joining a boat building co-op. Yes there's one here,
    Bargain hunting on e-bay, flea markets & yard sales,
    Bulk purchase deals from wholesalers,
    Begging, borrowing & stealing.
Here's what the "worst case" looks like so far.

Image

So, if I can save hmmmm? 20% through good bargain hunting I should come out at about $63K, ($56.7K US) not quite double what I originally figured it'd cost but well within my comfort zone. Still not bad for a brand new diesel powered 28' trawler. Just to compare a new C-Dory 25' w/90HP Honda 4-stroke @ about $85K. I know the two boats aren't really comparible but haven't seen anything that's a better. I think if I really skrimped and scraped I could probably get that down to $45K. That's Canadian $$ too.

Keep in mind that not everyone would build their boat to the same level of sophistication & finish that I intend to. I've focussed on dependability & reliability as well as a fairly high level of finish to both the interior & exterior. You'll notice the bulge in the "Electrical" category, that's for a reason that I'll discuss later. Your mileage will vary.

Rick
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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UncleRalph
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Re: Why they cost so much

Post by UncleRalph » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:28 pm

laporter wrote:I think I'm getting a better handle on why boats cost so much. I've just completed the first version of my project spreadsheet listing every item req'd to complete our TW28 project. Further revisions will refine the estimate .
From past experience further refinement always makes the cost go up. 8O

Ralph

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Re: Why they cost so much

Post by laporter » Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:30 am

UncleRalph wrote:From past experience further refinement always makes the cost go up. 8O
Amen brother. Preaching to the converted here!
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Post by jacquesmm » Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:28 pm

That estimate is very, very high. Look for example at the electrical post: $ 6,700.00 ??? You can do all the electricity for $ 500.00, maybe less if you do it workboat style.
A low estimate for the TW28 with new engine should be around 40K, 60 K with many bells and whistles.
A cheap one with a rebuild engine may go as low as 30K.

I saw that you wrote a worse case scenario but it is still too much.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

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Post by laporter » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:08 pm

Salut Jacques

Well just to illustrate how we get "Screwed" (sorry pardon the pun) on boating equipment north of the border, I just recently purchased a set of B5 Volvo Penta Duo Props for my boat. I bought them online from the US. I paid $580 US. With currency exchange, shipping, taxes & duties the total cost was $800 Cdn. The best price I could find here in Canada anywhere was $1050 so add taxes & shipping they would have cost me a minimum of $1200. So as much as I like to support local/Cdn businesses I like having the $400 in my pocket. Oh by the way the $400 I saved paid for the TW28 plans! C'est la vie.

I pointed out the bump in the electrical estimate but should state that it includes the fridge, windlass & all the pumps which you might of expected to find in the plumbing section. Again, this'll not be a workboat fit-out. Probably closer to a middle-high end yacht finish. (I hope).

a bientot

Rick
Last edited by laporter on Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Post by Evan_Gatehouse » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:14 am

As a Canadian building (sort of) I boat, I can give you some hints:

- haunt Ebay for the big ticket items. Use saved searches.

- use Google for the rarer ones. I found a feathering prop in Australia on Page 50 of a Google search.

- don't use UPS Ground into Canada if more than $20 value. Use US Postal as then Canada Post only charges $6 flat brokerage fee. UPS charges a significant portion of the value of the goods as their fee.

- if you live close to the border, find a US mailbox place that accepts packages in your name. Have it shipped to the US mailbox place and bring it across the border yourself. If it's a Ebay purchase from a private seller, then there won't be a receipt. You need some sort of receipt to show Canada Customs. Make sure it's for a reasonable amount (wink wink).

- I see you had Straight McKay listed in your cost listing. They have to be the most expensive chandlery in Canada.

- All the running gear etc. can be purchased in Canada, though some may be cheaper in the US with the Cdn dollar rising so fast. Talk to local boat builders and see who they use for shafting, bearings etc. It seldom makes sense to ship heavy stuff like that very far.

- I agree that some of your estimates seem very very high. Without trying to be too sarcastic, maybe your background in CG makes your project a bit of a gold plater?
designer: FB11/GV10,11,13/ HMD18/
SK17,MM21/MT24

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Post by kiwi » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:25 am

jacquesmm wrote:That estimate is very, very high. Look for example at the electrical post: $ 6,700.00 ??? You can do all the electricity for $ 500.00, maybe less if you do it workboat style.
A low estimate for the TW28 with new engine should be around 40K, 60 K with many bells and whistles.
A cheap one with a rebuild engine may go as low as 30K.

I saw that you wrote a worse case scenario but it is still too much.
I wanted to reply yesterday along similar lines. A quick off the top of the head price study here in Europe gives an entry level boat at around 35,000 Euros and that is with 19.6% sales tax - for 10,000 more you can get quite a lot of "luxury" equipment.

One more thing: both the US and France have very large boating industries so by shopping around and begging etc. etc. you can find good deals or even companies willing to sell at wholesale prices to amateur builders. Remember that amateur building is a marginal market for these people (99% of their sales are to professional builders) but helping an amateur builder is very good marketing and word of mouth advertising for the products made by these companies.

Cheers

Tony
Editor in chief
amateurboatbuilding.com

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Post by laporter » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:07 am

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:Without trying to be too sarcastic, maybe your background in CG makes your project a bit of a gold plater?
Ya mean the head ain't gonna look like this?
Image

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm slowly figuring it out. Although I rarely go past 3-4 pages in a google search. I find Yahoo is giving me better results lately. Google's giving too much priority ranking to their paid banner advertisers. I am actively looking for more economical materials without compromising safety.

I think my logistics background is really gonna help Evan. I'm the guy at work who's known as the "miracle worker" the guy who can get the job done w/o spending a fortune. I know ya think I'm just blowin' my own horn, but I don't believe in spending your tax dollars just for the sake of spending them and makin' the consultants rich. I've debunked so many computer consultants over the years that there's only a very few companies that'll even bid on my contracts. I renegotiated a Internet contract a couple of years ago that saves 2X my salary every year.

I think I'm gonna be even more tenacious when I'm spending Lori's (wife) money on this project! :o)

Makes for interesting discussions though. I often wonder how many projects get started and abandoned part way through due to rising project costs. Of course life gets in the way sometimes too so that's another variable to consider. I only hope, at the end of all this, that I can still fill the fuel tanks and go boatin'!

Flash Update! Our lil' project just got set back at least 6 months, maybe a year, I have to replace the engine in my truck, which by the way, I just got paid off last month. *sigh*

Thanks again.

Rick
Last edited by laporter on Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rick, Lori & Shadow

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Post by laporter » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:07 am

Evan_Gatehouse wrote:- haunt Ebay for the big ticket items. Use saved searches.
I've located a few bargains on e-bay but not many.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:- Use use Google for the rarer ones. I found a feathering prop in Australia on Page 50 of a Google search.
I rarely have the patience to go beyond 3-4 pages. I guess I'll dig a little deeper.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:- Use don't use UPS Ground into Canada if more than $20 value. Use US Postal as then Canada Post only charges $6 flat brokerage fee. UPS charges a significant portion of the value of the goods as their fee.
Yup, figured that out on the prop purchase.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:- if you live close to the border, find a US mailbox place that accepts packages in your name. Have it shipped to the US mailbox place and bring it across the border yourself.
I have that option available but don't want to abuse it as the box belongs to my buddies who work at Customs at the local bridge crossing and I definitely don't wanna p*ss them off now do I?
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:- I see you had Straight McKay listed in your cost listing. They have to be the most expensive chandlery in Canada.
The absolute best for creating the "worst case" was the Vetus online catalogue followed closely by SM. Close behind them was Mermaid Marine.
Evan_Gatehouse wrote:- I agree that some of your estimates seem very very high. Without trying to be too sarcastic, maybe your background in CG makes your project a bit of a gold plater?
'nuff said methinks.

Rick
Yours Aye!
Rick, Lori & Shadow

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