Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

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jacquesmm
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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by jacquesmm » Thu May 28, 2020 5:28 pm

I'm following this thread and the whole class story since it started. I love the concept but it is a little bit extreme. If I was younger, I may not feel that way :-), maybe it's just jealousy.

Unlike some other members of our forum like Terrulian or Evan, I did not sail all around the world but I crossed the Atlantic single handed and was also at the start of the very first Mini-Transat, in 1979 I think. I can share some experience about that. At the time, I was working with the Bureau Trismus, a yacht design office founded by my friend Patrick Van God. We had a boat in the race, skipped by Patrick and I prepared the boat with him, testing the boat and working full time on it for 3 weeks until the start in Penzance UK. Patrick had sailed two times around the world, passed Cape Horn etc. but he disappeared at sea in this race. Our boat was 22', that was the max. and Jaysen, 22' is small in a big ocean.
All the future ocean racing stars were at the start: Jean Luc Van den Heede, Alvare Mabirre, Kazimir Jaworksy etc.

For this boat, I would have preferred to see the designer use plywood as a core in epoxy but he picked ply on timber frames with epoxy seams a protective coat of glass. Good boats have been built that way but it is sad that the rule is not flexible about hull materials, I could have specified an alternate planking stronger, lighter and easier to build.
I am glad to see that the rules require the use of a sextant. Not only is it safe but it will eliminate many dreamers.
The 2,000 miles qualifier is also a good rule. From NC, a long tack to Bermuda and a smooth arc to the Carribean will give you 2,000 miles.
I don't get the requirement for an outboard. There must have been 30 boats at the start of the 1st Mini and nobody had an outboard. I had a sculling sweep. I transited the Panama Canal last year and I would not handle those locks with an outboard. Why don't they tow the boats on a trailer, shared cost for the trailer. Ask the organizer, the Canal is expensive.
Pulpit and pushpit are a very good requirement.
I have to check all that electric drive rule at the Class web site but I don't get it. BTW, there isn't much room for a solar panel on that deck. Towing a charging prop works on big boats but that would slow you down.
The boat looks well designed, sturdy, nice lines. I find the cockpit a little to large for the ocean: have very large scuppers and bring an air bag or two to fill the cockpit in bad weather. I may be a little extreme but that cockpit is larger than the one I had on my 40 footer.
I am glad that is not an extremely light boat, you will need the displacement.
Have you or anybody calculated the weight and volume of what you need to cross the Pacific? Food, water? I remember loading Patrick's boat for a Transat and there was no room left in that 22 footer. Even my 40' boat was crowded with all the beer cases needed for a Transat. All those stores have to be secured low in a way that will keep it from flying if the boat is rolled.
About rolling, don't skimp on the rigging. I would go oversize and have a spare emergency main: a smaller stiff flat one with a hollow leach no battens. You"ll use it in the windy parts of the race. I would use plastic sliders to attach the main to the spars: make them a little weak that way they break if you are rolled and you can save the sail. Have plenty of spares.
I like the sail plan very much: no roller furler, you just bring the sails up and down, very safe and it works well.
Running backstays, I love it, very seaworthy.
I would replace that thing on the companion way hatch with a plexy bubble: nice all around view.
The rules specify safety stuff but what's missing is a sea anchor and/or a drogue. I would have one.
If the rules allow you to customize your hull planking, don't go to low. As Fallguy explained, thickness is stiffness. Thicker ply is better than extra glass. It's different on my designs because I use ply as a core.
I"ll keep silent now but I will be reading your posts with interest.


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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by Jaysen » Thu May 28, 2020 6:33 pm

Jacques, your input is very welcome. Much of what you have said has been echoed by a number of folks in the public and private forums.

A few points I'll attempt to address:
Motor This is some insurance issue. I believe they are now saying oars/skulling oar is acceptable. The electric motor must be an outboard type not in inboard. They are limiting the on board batteries...

Hull ply This has been a bit of an issue as the designer is using "local to him" sizes that a lot of us just can't get. We asked about 12mm but were told "no". When we did get the OK for 12mm it was still with glass at which point the weight penalty became large enough to be problematic (class statement). As to ply as a core... there have been multiple "arguments" but the designer set in a specific design spec. I'm seeing the boat as a thing that will be repaired post use so ... I guess it's a cost of business to me? I would prefer your method if I'm being honest.

Supplies Keep in mind that there will be forced stops for resupply. FR to Canary, Canary to Caribbean (Kits?), Carribean to Panama, etc. There are 2 stops in post Panama IIRC. We are also free to stop any place we want. This is not a GGR style "no stop" event. If it was... I want a bigger boat! There will be all kinds of issues with storage. I'm waiting to get some progress on the hull, but from what the plans show there is a lot of storage from just above the water line down. I've got ideas on how to secure it all, but need to get something built to see if it will work. Here's the map of the tentative globe race... Image

Nav and qualification I have my concerns about being adequately competent with celestial nav. I'm planning to start working on that sooner than a boat build just to calm my own fears of getting lost out there. My 2kmi plan is CHS to Puerto Rico, down to Martinique then back. My thought is that I can pull the outside edge of the Gulf Stream on my way down and be within reach of help if needed. The two distances (down and back) allow me just under the mid-length average. If I can complete one of those legs with "more than half stores" still remaining I should be good for "longest runs x1.5" in supplies.

Sails There is a bit of heated debate about the sail requirements. There are questions about what we are allowed to use for dogs and even which spares we are allowed to take. I'm taking the "wait and see" approach to the argument. The basic view on the "requirements" is that we will be required to carry the same sails as mini 6.5 just scaled to size. I'm going to take what you've suggested and see how it flies.

Safety The listed gear is what is minimally required. I plan to carry drogues. Note the plural. I also plan to have spares in the resupply stores. While I really want to "win", I'm also a realist ... if you don't actually survive you lose in the worst possible way. I have every intention of surviving this event (if I participate). It is actually the cost, once safety gear is adequately included, that is slowing our build. There's no point in starting the build until I am CERTAIN I can field a boat that is safe to compete. I'm taking note of ALL your suggestions and adding them to the priorities in safety consideration.

Panama No idea the plan on this. Don is not commenting yet. Most of us are hoping for trucked transit where we can pair up in 40' trailers. I have NO interest in riding out the canal with a 4hp outboard screaming for mercy...

I think those are the high points. If this build doesn't pan out, then I'm that much closer to building a VG26. Either way, BBC will be my core supplier.

And I officially have my license for hull ID 04. It was never in question, but the formal papers are in hand!

JM, please comment regularly. I'd love to have your input along the way.
Visit my official Class Globe 580 build blog at https://jaysenodell.com/globe-580
Currently starting a build of "Lil Bit More". A Class Mini 5.80
Class Mini 580 welcome post.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Jaysen wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm
I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by terrulian » Thu May 28, 2020 7:13 pm

Great to have Jacques weigh in.
This boat is very, very small for ocean passages as he says. I, too, would be worried about space and weight for spares, provisions, and water. Even heavy cruising boats are rarely not sailing below their lines when provisioned and fueled; yet the food for one person for an ocean crossing is just as heavy no matter how big the boat is. Wrenches are just as heavy, as is water. Of course sails are a bit lighter. 1/2 gallon of water per day is probably going to be enough to survive...but the long crossings are going to take awhile in that boat even if you're not becalmed. I would carry 20 gal at the absolute minimum. The course takes you to very warm areas and you'll have little shelter...and no air conditioning not provided by nature!

I feel a bit squeamish disagreeing with Jacques on roller-furling, but that said, even the Golden Globe participants had different views on this. My opinion is based on a particularly strenuous passage of 1000 miles with a break at the 1/2-way point, all to windward. The wind never stayed steady for too long but was always above 20 and often freshened to 35. The energy it took to continually reef main and foresail 24 hours a day--even though we had roller furling on the jib--plus the motion of the boat, wore you down physically and mentally. And you had no alternative, because too little sail and you stalled, too much and you beat yourselves and the boat to death. The idea of having to change headsails 10 times a day is very daunting. I know some of the singlehanders in the GGR did it. But they are MUCH better men and women than I am.
And with regard to sails, Jacques' advice is well-founded. I would want to be prepared to be rolled in this little thing. Being hit by a 15-20 very steep wave is going to have you changing your underwear at best. It's not quite the Southern Ocean, but waves that size can definitely not be ruled out.

On celestial: You don't have to invest in a high quality sextant; Davis' Mark 15 is totally fine if you're not an expert. You can get one of their artificial horizons to practice with as you will probably not have enough time at sea. Tanya Aebi left on her solo circumnavigation as a teenager well before GPS in her little Contessa 26. She had a sextant aboard that she'd never used and a book to figure it out. Hmmm. She's one of my heroes for her guts alone.

Here's a link to a recent achievement by the unstoppable Webb Chiles, who last year completed his sixth round trip on a Moore 24, which is a small 24-footer with a tiny cabin. I tip my hat; but I'm a lubber for the duration. No more voyaging for me.
This is an event like the R2AK that, as a younger man, as Jacques mentioned, I certainly would have seen the attraction of.
https://www.cruisingworld.com/webb-chil ... avigation/
Last edited by terrulian on Fri May 29, 2020 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by Netpackrat » Thu May 28, 2020 9:17 pm

jacquesmm wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 5:28 pm
Unlike some other members of our forum like Terrulian or Evan, I did not sail all around the world but I crossed the Atlantic single handed and was also at the start of the very first Mini-Transat, in 1979 I think. I can share some experience about that. At the time, I was working with the Bureau Trismus, a yacht design office founded by my friend Patrick Van God. We had a boat in the race, skipped by Patrick and I prepared the boat with him, testing the boat and working full time on it for 3 weeks until the start in Penzance UK. Patrick had sailed two times around the world, passed Cape Horn etc. but he disappeared at sea in this race.
Jacques, do you know if his books have ever been translated into the English language?

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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by jacquesmm » Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm

The books and movies by Patrick Van God were published in French, translated in Portuguese, Dutch, German and Spanish but not in English. BTW, his real name was Van Godsenhoven but he shortened it because only Dutch speaking Belgians could pronounce it.
He gave me the lines plan of his boat, the famous Trismus and I scaled it up a little bit. Later, our friend JP Brouns produced commercial plans and sold about 200 copies plus thousands of copies of variations in all sizes, many in aluminum.
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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by jacquesmm » Fri May 29, 2020 2:21 pm

One item at a time, celestial nav 1st.
Do as Terrulian proposes: get an inexpensive Davis and practice.
I had a very nice and expensive German sextant but bought a plastic Davis as a backup. I used the Davis all the time. On a small boat, taking sights can never be precise enough to take full advantage of a precision sextant, The Davis works very well.

Check this:
https://astrolabesailing.com/2016/10/31 ... -required/

I like HO249 tables and the Norris tables. HO249 give you the sun and stars locations (I never used the stars) and the Norris are math tables: trigonometry and log.
Most people can do all the math in 30 to 40 minutes but I had a trick: I used only 3 decimals. Given the lack of precision of a sight taken on a small boat, there is no need to drag 5 decimals along. That way, I could one line of sight in less than 20 minutes.
There is a version of the Norris tables that contains an almanac with useful info about ports of the world.
I know that some like to use a calculator but the idea is being able to do it without relying on batteries.

Another solution that worked for me was to use the Reed's Nautical Almanac. It has everything, tables and sights in one book but only with 3 decimals and only for one year.
I used only the Atlantic version, I don;t know much about the Pacific version.
In addition to the sextant tables, you need a clock. A cheap $ 10.00 quartz clock is fine as long as you can rest it with a radio.

Navigation is important. The winner of that 1st Mini Transat was a fast boat but the second was a sluggish boat with a junk sail.The routes were available after the race and of all of them, he had sailed the shortest route, 200 miles less than the next.
Get an understanding of ortho and loxodromy: the shortest line does not follow a constant bearing.

And understand that we all look at you as our proxy sailor. That may result in an overload of advice and opinions. Sorry if that's the case.
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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by Jaysen » Fri May 29, 2020 3:18 pm

Jacques, pile the info on!

I'm looking to get multiple plastic Davis units.
1 - Every day use
2 - Backup
1 - Available at supply stops
I can get 5 of them for the price of a new high end... 3 for the price of a used high end model. I don't see any point in getting anything else at this point. I'm looking at the Mark 25 as my standard model. I haven't even started to think about charts, tables and other instruments/tools yet. I've bookmarked that site and will publish it to my personal blog once we start that course (Mrs is actually going to learn all this with me!).

I'm going to grab a couple of time systems. I will be building a power management system that will have multiple RTC (Real Time Clocks) for redundancy. There will be a set function. That will be my main time source. I will also have the normal array of clocks including a manual wind time piece (that one will be a watch that will not leave my arm :)). No one ever complained about too many clocks!

Navigation is one of those things that I need to get right. While I'm confident in the boat design, i don't want to be pushing the limits of anything. And since these are "one design" hulls, beyond the basics of sailing it will be the course plotting that wins. And yes, I really want to be in the first finishers.

I'm happy to be "that guy" for you all. Hell, that's the tag line of the blog at this point. As to the advice and opinions, I welcome them all. It is better to think through advice/opinions that are wrong and KNOW that you have the right solution than it is to hope you haven't missed anything. i have a lot of learning to do and I know it. I'll be relying on input from you, Tony, Evan Capt UB and the rest of the BBC crowd.

Well... maybe not Fuzz... this boat won't have a motor. Just kidding Fuzz.
Visit my official Class Globe 580 build blog at https://jaysenodell.com/globe-580
Currently starting a build of "Lil Bit More". A Class Mini 5.80
Class Mini 580 welcome post.
My already completed 'Lil Bit'. A Martens Goosen V12 set up to sail me to the fishing holes.
Jaysen wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm
I tried to say something but God thought I was wrong and filled my mouth with saltwater. I kept my pie hole shut after that.

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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by Netpackrat » Fri May 29, 2020 4:21 pm

jacquesmm wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:29 pm
The books and movies by Patrick Van God were published in French, translated in Portuguese, Dutch, German and Spanish but not in English. BTW, his real name was Van Godsenhoven but he shortened it because only Dutch speaking Belgians could pronounce it.
He gave me the lines plan of his boat, the famous Trismus and I scaled it up a little bit. Later, our friend JP Brouns produced commercial plans and sold about 200 copies plus thousands of copies of variations in all sizes, many in aluminum.
That's too bad, I would have liked to read those. One of my favorite channels on Youtube has a Brouns designed Trisalu 37 which they completely rebuilt. They are planning to sell her now since they want to build a catamaran, but it's a nice boat. If I still lived where I could keep a boat in the water I would probably try to buy it, since it's a near perfect boat for the coast of Alaska with its pilothouse and shallow draft. Here is a video from when they ran into one of their sister ships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bzNvlpCK7U

Instead of the twin centerboards, the Trisalu only had one plus two stern dagger boards. Apparently the daggerboard cases were prone to corrosion and both of those boats have had them welded over.

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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by jacquesmm » Fri May 29, 2020 5:00 pm

That Trisalu is almost a sistership of my old boat. I was in JP Brouns office almost everyday when he designed her.
The interior of my boat looked much larger first because she was 10% bigger but also because I had no framing thanks to foam sandwich, no aft cabin, one wide open space.
The dual aft CB's is an improvement because the single rear one required a exceedingly fat box keel to allow for the stern tube next to the CB trunk.
I also liked the Trisbal hard chine alu, especially the 45.
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Re: Jaysen's Mini 580 plan

Post by terrulian » Fri May 29, 2020 5:59 pm

I'm assuming you won't have an HF radio but if you can have a shortwave radio you can get the time to check your clocks.
As to sight reduction, I agree with Jacques, as usual: using a calculator is not keeping the spirit of celestial navigation. He says he didn't use stars and that is pretty normal, as you have to find the star in the first place, then take a sight on that and maybe one more, and you only have as long as twilight lasts, and that's assuming a clear sky. I found it pretty tough just to identify a star when you can only see 1/4 of the sky in patches. You can take a running fix on the sun during the day, plus a noon sight, which should do. Are you supposed to keep a gps in a sealed box?

I'm afraid I'll be, as Jacques fears, an armchair advisor who may be tempted to offer too much input. :doh: :help:
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