FS17

Power Boats only. Please include the boat type in your question.
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Deedaddy
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Post by Deedaddy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:15 pm

shine wrote:Those shapes could be built very easy from foam strip, or sheathed wood strip. Either method is easier than cold molding for an amateur.
I agree with that. Having helped build several cold molded yachts 38' to 64' that cost 1.5 to 3.5 million and several S&G smaller boats I know both methods very well.
It is funny that my son was using hand drafting up tile this year when I decided to drag him into the computer age. I am 66 and he is 44. He is slow to change. He thinks that the old way is best. I am the one looking for faster and better ways. :lol: This morning I was doing some wiring for him and decided to point out to him that the two news models had a very important part of their hull done the same as used in the S&G process use in the designs from here. The part that requires the most strength and one of the three surfaces that are cold molded. One has an IPS drive that is installed to a fiberglass flange tabbed into the bottom by several layers of epoxy.
The other has twin tunnels made from fiberglass and tabbed into the bottom.
So both are depending on S&G to be the strongest part of the hull. The inside of the boat have very few differences.



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Tri
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Post by Tri » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:32 pm

Cold molding is not that hard, once you understand the process. I live on Roanoke Island, own/restored a Warren O'Neal sportfisher (plank on frame) and I am building a cold molded 24 CC and also a FS 17. Your point about amateurs, well everybody on Roanoke Island was a charter captain almost and back yard builder or amateur Most learned from Warren O'Neal, Omie Tillett, Sheldon Midgett. Craig Blackwell is the only trained (Guogean Brothers) builder on Island. Most hulls are being BUILT now by laborers in the big shops with a knowlwgeable foreman or lead man. I spent Friday touring Spencers shop and looking at 6 hulls in progress. These cold molded beauties are being built with alot of hardworking hispanic labor and naval achitecture assistance from company's like Applied Concepts.

If the CS23 had more bow flare and hawk, I would be building vs. my jig 24. !

To me it's all about just building boats-the romance of the wood!!!! Should go fishing sometime though!

These are great "composite built" boats from Jacques and company. Its just another building m,ethod. Look at Sam Devline stitch and glue masterpieces for several hundred thousand.

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Tri
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Post by Tri » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:38 pm

Oh, Buddy Davis hasn't done a boat from a a pencil drawing on a piece of juniper or plywood in a long time. He used inhouse designers and his last 28 and 34 CC were drawn in cad by the same guy who did my jig. Buddy is closed up again! Three strikes and your out.

It is a shame, because he is so knowledgeable.

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Post by Deedaddy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:22 pm

Tri wrote:If the CS23 had more bow flare and hawk, I would be building vs. my jig 24. !
This is what Shine was talking about. S&G could be done in foam or plywood.
The only advantage to cold molded is the second layer would be very close to fair and wood sands easier than fairing compound.
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Post by boguesound kid » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:27 am

Hey, it's obvious that I upset some people with my opinions... though it doesn't seem that the equivications are coming from the original poster. Again, I'm not saying it is impossible, just that rigorous honesty with ones self is required, as it relates to skill, commitment, and financing.
And the "labor" building those boats today is highly devoted to the task. If you can devote that level of energy you may end up with a similar result... just keep in mind, they are many, you are one.
As for foam, well strength/weight is still a concern, I don't know of any carolina boats currently under construction by that method. And this is because it is so superior FOR THIS STYLE OF BOAT. Hatteras has a new 60' sportfisherman, I wouldn't call it a true Carolina boat, that is foam core. they have skilled labor, state of the art molds(five piece molds to allow tumble home), and all the best resin infusion equipment that money can buy, I know that out of first 10 hulls they had to scrap 2, for serious strength issues. I know this because I was an employee of their Swansboro plant when they began building the new 60. The hulls still sit upside-down out back of the plant.
And as for strip planking w/ wood... well the labor saved in woodworking is still more attractive to me than the labor gained in fairing time. I'd rather build cold molded than spend the extra time fairing, in the end I'd have alot more faith in the strength of the boat to. Thats just me though. I'm pretty stuborn I guess.

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Post by jacquesmm » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:24 am

boguesound kid wrote: A cold molded carolina boat is an expert build and the fact that Jacques and Shine have 0 plans on the site for that method of building should be interpreted to mean, that style is more difficult, expensive, and requires more tools, making it less acheivable, to avereage Joe.
That's not entirely the reason.
Cold molding is not difficult but it is very very labor intensive and require wood working skills for the framing. The end product is not better than our composites.
Since you must anyway cover the hull with fiberglass, why not use multiple layers and build a composite hull? It does not require wood working machinery and skills, saves labor and the final product is, in my opinion, a superior one.

Boat builders use cold molding in NC because they come from a wooden boat building tradition, have the tools and skills and especially, it's wood, a familiar material. Composites are new and they are not as comfortable with it as with wooden boat building.
It's logical for them but for a builder that works from scratch, our methods are much better choice.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

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Post by jacquesmm » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:31 am

boguesound kid wrote: As for foam, well strength/weight is still a concern, I don't know of any carolina boats currently under construction by that method. And this is because it is so superior FOR THIS STYLE OF BOAT. Hatteras has a new 60' sportfisherman, I wouldn't call it a true Carolina boat, that is foam core. they have skilled labor, state of the art molds(five piece molds to allow tumble home), and all the best resin infusion equipment that money can buy, I know that out of first 10 hulls they had to scrap 2, for serious strength issues.
At equal weight, foam core is stronger than cold molding.
More than half of the largest and fastest yachts in the world are built in foam core.
Builders make mistakes with all kind of materials and if they used really skilled labor, they would not have problems.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

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Post by Deedaddy » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:59 am

jacquesmm wrote:
boguesound kid wrote: A cold molded carolina boat is an expert build and the fact that Jacques and Shine have 0 plans on the site for that method of building should be interpreted to mean, that style is more difficult, expensive, and requires more tools, making it less acheivable, to avereage Joe.
That's not entirely the reason.
Cold molding is not difficult but it is very very labor intensive and require wood working skills for the framing. The end product is not better than our composites.
Since you must anyway cover the hull with fiberglass, why not use multiple layers and build a composite hull? It does not require wood working machinery and skills, saves labor and the final product is, in my opinion, a superior one.

Boat builders use cold molding in NC because they come from a wooden boat building tradition, have the tools and skills and especially, it's wood, a familiar material. Composites are new and they are not as comfortable with it as with wooden boat building.
It's logical for them but for a builder that works from scratch, our methods are much better choice.
I agree with that.
There is even resistance to the use of CNC cut parts in the industry. The old ways are hard to change for most. I have change enough of the process at Caison Yachts that the time to produce a jig for 40' hull was reduced from 720 man hours to 120.
Change will come or more will go down like
Buddy Davis has three times.

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Post by boguesound kid » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:01 pm

Builders make mistakes with all kind of materials and if they used really skilled labor, they would not have problems. I had a friend from Hatteras Swansboro stop by yesterday. He said that he, and 9 others, had been pulled off the line to go work in lamination, helping salvage FOUR more infused hulls that they can't push through the line due to major flaws in their lay up. All I have been saying is that it is more difficult to build cold molded... and apparently foam core. If that's upsetting to you I'm sorry but know one has offered the draw backs to those methods except me. I love wooden boats and the cold molded method, I think it is supperior to most others, I just think the doing is difficult and realistic goals are necissary. I may be going to far with this. I really didn't mean it is impoossible, or that Jacques designs are not great. just that this site is not geared towards that method of building, and that severely limits the resource this site is so great at providing first hand knowledge and experience. in my humble opinion, if you're gonna build a true carolina boat, build it the way carolina boats are built, don't think all these carolina builders are stubborn old rednecks who don't know any other way. These guys toy and tweak all the time, but they know they are responsible to their heritage, and reputation when they do. Shearline is one one of the Youngest of the established carolina builders. They were the first I heard of using cnc cut jigs 5 years ago now. They use foam where they believe they can trust it. I trust them to be right on the cutting edge, with Proven technology, or inovative technology when it makes sense to and doesn't gamble their reputation OR longevity of there product. Strength to weight is one thing in a static enviroment. But when factoring in flex, pounding, and vibation, heat, and blistering Foam/glass composite delaminates/ deteriorates far quicker than wood/glass composite. Man has not yet come up with a ligitimate building material matching or beating mothernature when the comparison is based on strength/weight x flexibility/longevity. If you think about it, and believe in evolution, you'll realize that almost since the beginning of time trees have been competing to be the tallest, biggest, strongest, most able to withstand storms,(flexible) and if you can claim that's not true, or you have a more trustworthy material for my boat that is the second biggest investment of money in my life, then I will listen. Thats why Carolina boat builders are slow to change, they let others see if this years "newer better way" can stand the test of time like the tried and true. And as for "no rot" What does that matter if your hull is delaminating after a few years. At least with care you can build/maintain your wood core so that it does not get wet. I'm sure that this message will get afew more responses trying to change my mind or dispute my facts, But... I'm just a stubborn redneck.[/quote]

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Post by tech_support » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:10 pm

I'm sure that this message will get afew more responses trying to change my mind or dispute my facts, But...
What facts are you referring to :?: :doh:

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