Scuppers?

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Idaho Rivers
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Scuppers?

Post by Idaho Rivers » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:33 pm

Can anybody make a recommendation regarding self bailing scuppers? I am having an aluminum 16' sled built for running rivers here in Idaho. Yes, I know, not a wooden bateau boat, sorry. I initially planned on building but given time constraints opted to go with aluminum built by someone else. I have received great advice from you all on this site regarding that initial plan as well as further ideas I have used for my raft. Anyway, I am considering putting in scuppers on the transom to evacuate water taken on during runs through white water. The transom will be solid aluminum so I would just need those that mount on the transom rather than the 'thru-transom' style. Obviously I need to prevent backwash. Wondering if there is anything I should avoid? Are they really effective in preventing backwash? I don't have any experience with scuppers, but the advice was given to me in my original post regarding building a boat for the above purposes. Thanks



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Re: Scuppers?

Post by TomW » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:12 am

In a 16' boat you are going to want scupper/drains through the transom. These should be pluggable from the inside as they will never be above the waterline on the outside. A 16' boat is just to small to have a self bailing deck. Here is a whole page of scuppers some that can be mounted directly to the aft of the transom. http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse. ... 2,331.html You will still need a way to block the inside unless your deck is higher than the weight of the cargo and people.
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Idaho Rivers
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Re: Scuppers?

Post by Idaho Rivers » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:46 am

I definitely will have a drain that is pluggable on the inside. But in addition to this, what I was hoping for was something that would be mounted ABOVE the waterline when the boat is fully loaded, that would quickly evacuate water in the event a large wave came over the bow while running whitewater. I understand this will not evacuate all the water in the boat, but atleast keep it to a mininum considering the waterline outside. The boat will have a raised deck, but probably only 2-3" max. Why is a 16' boat too small to have a self bailing deck with scuppers on the transom? Once the boat is built and loaded, I will check the displacement/waterline. It maybe that the scuppers would have to be mounted too high on the transom to be useful?? Thanks.

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Re: Scuppers?

Post by Spokaloo » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:33 am

Have you shipped a green one in the boat, or just spray mostly?

I'd say less than 10% of the boats running up here have any sort of scupper, and there's a reason. When you stick the bow into a green wave, you take on water FAST, and usually you have your choice of veering off or backing down to get away from the hole. In that time, you're eating big water in a boat with almost no flotation. The water ends up in the bilges below the sole of the boat, in the lowest and safest spot. Then you rely on pumps to get it out because unlike the ocean, you can control what water you're dealing with in a river. If she has a bunch of water in her, you can scoot to an eddy and let her drain.

With your scupper plan, you have holes that allow water out AND in, regardless of flappers. Unless you have enough flotation to hold up the weight of water in the boat, the scuppers will just allow water back in, which means you have a boat with holes in it. You would be safe with a pair of very large pumps (2000-6000gph depending on your level of big) hosing the water out while you sit in an eddy.

A possible solution to the whitewater problem is this style of scupper:

Image

So essentially you keep them tied up until she ships a big one, then get her on plane, open the drains, and let the water run out. This is fine if you have a pool and drop part of the river, but if it gets into a box canyon or an area that's an escalator, you won't be able to open them up until you have some distance to run.

Just some thoughts.

E

Idaho Rivers
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Re: Scuppers?

Post by Idaho Rivers » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:10 pm

E,

Thanks for the input. It was actually you who gave me the idea on scuppers originally when I had thoughts of building. I suspect your advice was boat dependent however. Well as you can see my plans changed, but folks have been so helpful on this site I continue to come here for boating/boat building/paint advice. Some day when time allows, maybe the build project will occur.

No, I have not taken a 'green one' in the boat, and hope not to, hopefully it will just be spray. I have taken plenty of green ones in my raft so it got me thinking though. I was just trying to plan ahead, prepare for the worst, be smart, safe, etc. I was reading back through your orginal advice on boats for running PARTS (the safer parts) of the Salmon R. and came across your advice on scuppers. Have not seen any on smaller sleds, thus the question. I think in researching further and with the advice of yourself and others, I will likely get a hefty bilge or two to evacuate the water quickly on the side of the river if necessary. Scuppers just don't seem to make much sense with my type of boat.

Any advice on good bilge pumps for my purpose? Others have given advice, but not in the flow rate you describe.

Thanks again,
John

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Re: Scuppers?

Post by Spokaloo » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:40 am

Yeah in the bigger sleds you can do the washdeck thing (there's some custom boats built in Lewiston that have scuppers), but in that little boat, it's really, really a tough compromise to make.

I'd do one 2000gph pump back in the back, and a 1250 up about station 4 (40% of the length of the boat back from the bow) in the bilges with short runs of smooth tubing like the clear water tube with embedded mesh to strengthen it. That helps to see when you're pumping water as well. Ideally you'd put the forward pump on a demand-only switch and the aft one on both a sensored switch and a demand switch. At least that's what I would do.

You can't go wrong with Rule pumps, but I have had Johnsons as well that worked fine.

What boat are you having built? I know the Bloodsworth boats are very shovel nosed, basically a garvey, and it's a real challenge to get them to bury the nose.

E

Idaho Rivers
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Re: Scuppers?

Post by Idaho Rivers » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:28 pm

E,
The boat being built is the 'Stillwater' series by FishCraft. www.fishcraft.com. He is building from scratch so I have an opportunity to customize the interior, add or take rocker, add strakes, modify chines, etc within reason. I realize the irony in purchasing a boat from the 'Stillwater' series to run in rivers. However, I had to compromise on a boat that I could run also reservoirs with the family, run in Class II whitewater or less, carry the gear/people I anticipate needing, and keep the cost within reason. Whew...tough duty, wish I could have gone bigger, but costs just get in the way. I looked a lot at the Rogue designed sleds and this came pretty close and was within my budget. So, this is what I settled on, plus he is really willing to do whatever I want. He developed the boat basically front half like a drift boat, back half modeled after an alumaweld flat bottom sled. When on plane the rocker up front is out of the water, so it will basically run like a flat bottom boat. I have a 40/30 Yamaha jet to go with it, which is about as big as he recommended weight wise. I am going to have him build a casting deck/dry box compartment up front so I can get as much weight up front as possible, recognizing that I can always move more weight back if necessary. Otherwise it will be a pretty open floor plan with rod trays and movable drybox seats as you can see in his photos. Another owner who I talked with runs his in the Oregon coastal bays, Columbia (says he has had it in some pretty big water/waves and felt safe), lower Rogue, and other lower coastal rivers. He has been very happy with the boat, handling, weight, etc. He likes that it is light and maneuverable.

My HOPE in running rivers is that the boat will be light enough and maneuverable enough to pick through boulder gardens and class II water, while being able to avoid (go around rather than through) the big stuff because of the 'nimbleness' of the boat. Time will tell. I've talked with folks who run the Salmon in 16 foot Jon boats all the way from Whitebird to Vinegar Creek (exception being some of the big water around Riggins).

I value your input Eric and knowledge of local water/boats, thanks, and if you have any other suggestions based on the above knowledge, I am open. He should be putting the boat on the jig this week, so my ability to 'customize' is coming to an end!!

John

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Re: Scuppers?

Post by Spokaloo » Sun May 01, 2011 1:35 am

John what you have there is basically a smaller version of the Pacific City dory, something that has a vast and storied past in Oregon. Check out their boats, that's a great start to find little touches inside the boat to make it really fishable.

http://www.pcdorymen.com/

And here's a few thousand photos more:

http://community.webshots.com/user/slw9 ... =community

The boats are evolutions from double ended dories from Grand Banks heritage, as well as some called West Banks dories, which is a distinct PNW shape. Specifically, check out the way they do their ice boxes and their fish trays aft along the rails. The fish trays are sweet because you can do all your fish work (bonk/bleed/scale/clean/etc) while on the boat, clean it up without it getting inside the work area, and there's tons of storage underneath.

Keep us posted on that boat as it comes together, looks like a sweet setup! Maybe if you feel like it, you could come up to the confluence of the Snake and Clearwater in September for a little steelie fishing?

E

Idaho Rivers
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Re: Scuppers?

Post by Idaho Rivers » Sun May 01, 2011 11:50 am

E,

Thanks for the info, I will take a look at some of the photos of the Dories when I get a chance. Made it up to the upper Clearwater last fall in the Kamiah area, with my raft. I really would like to get in on some of the early season steelhead fishing on the lower Clearwater/confluence/Snake, thus part of the reason for the boat!! If you'd like to meet up there sometime, lets make it happen!! Thanks again for the info. I will post some pics as the boat is coming along. I don't want to distract from the purpose of the site with and aluminum build, but hopefully folks can get some ideas.

John

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