FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

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LSUred
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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by LSUred » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:31 am

Don't know if its kosher to post prices, but I won't post names: got quoted $7230 for the Tohatsu TLDI 50hp including installation and rigging, all controls and harnesses and ss prop. Doesn't really sound like a steal but sounds honest. Now, I've opted for side mounted console throttle/control because it sounded easier. Figured I wouldn't have to make the cc as wide as for a top mount.

I know the dealers want to rig everything themselves, but is it best to go ahead and build CC and mount it, take the boat to dealer for rigging? Or how do most guys go about this step?



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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by tech_support » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:38 am

I know the dealers want to rig everything themselves, but is it best to go ahead and build CC and mount it, take the boat to dealer for rigging? Or how do most guys go about this step?
yes, that is what i woudl do if they woudl not let me do it all myself. Mount the binnacle or at least get the template to cut the hole (and seal it) yourself. Dont let them cut or drill anything without your permission. i woudl try to make it so that they basically hang the motor and connect cables.

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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by wadestep » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:01 am

shine wrote:Mount the binnacle or at least get the template to cut the hole (and seal it) yourself. Dont let them cut or drill anything without your permission. i woudl try to make it so that they basically hang the motor and connect cables.
sorry for shouting, but this is how important this is:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DON'T LET THEM CUT, SCREW, OR DRILL ANY HOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They will not take the time to seal and/or overdrill, fill, and re-drill properly. I agree with Shine 100%. Most importantly for the transom motor mounting holes. I made wure they wrote that right on the work order in caps, and even talked to the actual installer about it and why.
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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by Prarie Dog » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:03 am

silentneko wrote:
As far as e-tec, everyone I know with one has had issues, just makes me wary.
I hear you, when they first hit the market I knew a few guys who had issues, but since then they have figured out the bugs it seems. I know a ton of guys who swear by them and there are quite a few guides running them, and suzuki's, here in the bay area which is the best indication.
A small point about these statements and the issues surrounding the Etec Motors.
I've been in the auto business for too long to even think about it. At this time a guy can buy a car that the engine and transmission and most everything else on it will run and work for ten or twelve years and 200k miles. If a manufacturer doesn't build them like this pretty soon everyone knows that manufacturer is building a POS and they usually can't sell them.

Now we have Etec. Near me I know two boat shops that completely cut Evinrude out of their lineup because they had nothing but trouble for the first several years they sold them. Even today after 10 years or so of design experience and major warranty repairs and service they still build one that's a POS fairly often. Fishing website's are replete with Etec sob stories. It begs the question, why would anyone want one? You rarely hear anything bad about a Yamaha, Suzuki or Mercury. :doh:

Read a funny story the other day about a fishing guide that said they should supply a set of oars and rig oarlocks on every boat they mount an Etec on. :lol:

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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by LSUred » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:49 am

et them cut or drill anything without your permission. i woudl try to make it so that they basically hang the motor and connect cables.
Same way with transom right? I should order jack plate, install myself. Then all they do is attach motor to jackplate with no need for drilling?

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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by tech_support » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:20 am

LSUred wrote: Same way with transom right? I should order jack plate, install myself. Then all they do is attach motor to jackplate with no need for drilling?
Yes, thats even better. You get to do all the drilling/filling yourself

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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by silentneko » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:44 am

A small point about these statements and the issues surrounding the Etec Motors.
I've been in the auto business for too long to even think about it. At this time a guy can buy a car that the engine and transmission and most everything else on it will run and work for ten or twelve years and 200k miles. If a manufacturer doesn't build them like this pretty soon everyone knows that manufacturer is building a POS and they usually can't sell them.

Now we have Etec. Near me I know two boat shops that completely cut Evinrude out of their lineup because they had nothing but trouble for the first several years they sold them. Even today after 10 years or so of design experience and major warranty repairs and service they still build one that's a POS fairly often. Fishing website's are replete with Etec sob stories. It begs the question, why would anyone want one? You rarely hear anything bad about a Yamaha, Suzuki or Mercury. :doh:

Read a funny story the other day about a fishing guide that said they should supply a set of oars and rig oarlocks on every boat they mount an Etec on. :lol:
See now this is just a Chevy vs Ford argument now, lol. Your reasoning doesn't make much sense in your context, because BRP is selling tons of Etecs worldwide. I did know a builder who had major issues with them up until 2010 and stopped rigging them, then he told me they revamped the computers and now they are rock solid and swears by them over Hondas and Yamahas. Actually when I was looking for a new motor the Etecs and the Tohastu TLDI 2-strokes were the only ones that I both had to be on a waiting list for and couldn't get at a discount. I found tons of left over yamahas and Mercs, especially Mercs, some 3 years old the dealers couldn't get rid of. However I would never buy another newer Mercury! I've had 5 in my family circle, 1 FourStroke, 3 optimax's and 1 verado, and they were absolute total junk! Never had an issue with any yamahas they just don't have any power, but they are quiet and sip gas. Never had a newer zuke, but I know some who do and they like them.

Long story made short, for every intardnet post one can find about an etec issue, you can also find 10 praising them, especially the post 2010 varieties. Every company goes through growing pains, just look at Hyundai, Kia, and Nissan. Total junk at one point, but now they are top of there game.

I personally feel you will soon see a few more direct injected 2-strokes on the market, cause the 4-strokes aren't showing any real benefits to justify the complexity, power, and weight penalties.
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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by tech_support » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:27 am

I made a spread sheet to compare cost of a new DI (300 HPDI) and a F250 4 stroke. It took everything into consideration, fuel, oil, maintenance per hour, etc.

The economy of the 4 strokes at trolling and idle are a big factor
As a normal cruise the fuel burn of the 4 is about 75% of the 2

Cost of fuel: Woudl not run a DI on anythign but 90 octane non-ethenol fuel, 4 stroke will go forever on pump gas

Oil: 2 stroke needs it, 4 doesn't

Maintenance: 4 stroke per hour is high, 2 stroke is not as bad but you have to swap out plugs pretty regularly.

With all that in the formula, I would have to bump the hours per year to over 150 before the 4 stroke came out a clear winner. A lot depends on how you use the boat, 50% running 50% idle gives different results than 80% running 20% idle.

The peace and quiet of a 4 stroke while offshore is so nice, not to mention reliability, not to mention potential resale.

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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by Larry B » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:25 pm

FWIW, I love my E-tec :D
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Re: FS17LS: tohatsu or Yamaha?

Post by Prarie Dog » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:49 pm

silentneko wrote:See now this is just a Chevy vs Ford argument now, lol. Your reasoning doesn't make much sense in your context, because BRP is selling tons of Etecs worldwide. I did know a builder who had major issues with them up until 2010 and stopped rigging them, then he told me they revamped the computers and now they are rock solid and swears by them over Hondas and Yamahas. Actually when I was looking for a new motor the Etecs and the Tohastu TLDI 2-strokes were the only ones that I both had to be on a waiting list for and couldn't get at a discount. I found tons of left over yamahas and Mercs, especially Mercs, some 3 years old the dealers couldn't get rid of. However I would never buy another newer Mercury! I've had 5 in my family circle, 1 FourStroke, 3 optimax's and 1 verado, and they were absolute total junk! Never had an issue with any yamahas they just don't have any power, but they are quiet and sip gas. Never had a newer zuke, but I know some who do and they like them.
Don't recall saying anything about Ford Vs Chevy although I could make an argument and support it with hard movement numbers on parts in essentially every market in the country. Having said that we're talking outboards here and the point is any manufacturer that built, for several years, a very unreliable engine isn't deserving of your business. And won't get mine. I own a Tohatsu and am familiar with the technology, while E-Techs were getting stomped on internet pages Tohatsu's were getting good reviews. That's why I bought it and it's been good, my personal experience doesn't count for much though, only time and the experience of large numbers of users counts for anything. When it comes to engines, and I mean the whole package, it should all be good, for pretty much everybody. It's now the 2000's and screwing up an internal combustion engine and or it's package is totally unacceptable. Don't know of Yamaha's being considered weak, or any significant number or problems with Verado's, the Opti's yes.
silentneko wrote:Long story made short, for every intardnet post one can find about an etec issue, you can also find 10 praising them, especially the post 2010 varieties. Every company goes through growing pains, just look at Hyundai, Kia, and Nissan. Total junk at one point, but now they are top of there game.
If you think Kia's or Hyundai's are good cars then you need to buy an E-Tech. Never heard of Nissan's being junk, been working on them for about 40 years now and they've been pretty good.
silentneko wrote:I personally feel you will soon see a few more direct injected 2-strokes on the market, cause the 4-strokes aren't showing any real benefits to justify the complexity, power, and weight penalties.
I think you're mistaken on this too. Four strokes are being simplified and lightened, the new 150 Merc is very light for it's class. They are quieter and odor free, generally they're more fuel efficient too.

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