DE25 Ownership Log

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Matt Gent
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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by Matt Gent » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:37 pm

Got out the hole saw and went to town. 5 holes in the aft deck compartments, then moved to three forward.

All but the port aft hole had water full to within an inch or so of the bottom of the sole. The outer compartments are mostly foam-filled; the intermediate ones were about 70% full, the center one had none. The three compartments forward had no foam and were also full.

I suspect it goes farther forward, but things get tougher there with the fuel tank boxes.

Can someone tell me how far forward the next bulkhead is? There is the transom, then the main bulkhead about 14" fwd, then one that runs up the gunnels about 32.5" fwd of that. I don't know where the next one is. I should probably pick up a set of plans.

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Sawdust on the surface of the water
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Video but it didn't host the way I expected, and kinda big. Pardon the dog barking!
http://mattgent.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... AF431A.mov



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jacquesmm
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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by jacquesmm » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:17 pm

There should not be any water there.
Is it fresh or salt water? Rain or sea?
From there you can back track but something is not sealed.
If it is rain, check your deck seams. If it is seawater, plug all drains, dry and unplug one at a time.
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Matt Gent
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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by Matt Gent » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:27 pm

Sea water. There was a drip leak from the scupper hose, from there it came over the bulkheads forward is my best guess. So the deck isn't very well sealed. I can see the glass and fillets from the bottom up all sides of the boxes. Deck not well-bed, all-around apparently, there are no limber holes between compartments.

There are some drain holes through the cleats between the three cavities at the transom, so those could cross-talk. I'm not certain if there are similar holes through the cleats for the rest, though it would make sense how the water got everywhere.

The boat has no drains other than the two cockpit scuppers.

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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by TomTom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:22 am

Matt - so sorry to see that; the frames will be generally be in line under the sole where the frames are above the sole; unless the builder did something odd.

I think you are prolonging the inevitable - I would get a circular saw out and set the cut depth to the thickness off the plywood and the cut out that entire back deck as neatly as possible; if you do it well you can even reuse it.

You should be able to pry it off the frames and cleats (don't ask me how I know this). You have already investigated too far to turn a blind eye now.

If the boat is 900 pounds heavier than it was before thats at least 400 lts of water (20 buckets) you have in there. You need a big enough inspection area to understand how that is happening and how it is moving between compartments.

I had a similar thing with my OD 18 - I could not believe how the water would wick under one stringer to the next; I ended up making limber holes between all the compartments that all led to the bilge. I seal my big inspection hatch with silicon and I bolt it down against some T nuts I installed in some cleats around the edges. Every so often I can pull it up and have a look at what is happening. Not an ideal soln - but I couldnt face redoing all the stringers and frames and the boat doesnt venture too far offshore.

The water was initially seeping in where a crack had opened up between the front locker bulkhead and the sole- almost impossible to see. I found it by using soap sudson the deck and then putting a compressor nozzle into a small hole that I drilled through the sole. (Maybe thats why my sole came off so easily!!). Make sure you don't over pressure it!

Basically, it sucks - properly sucks - but the sooner you get on with cutting that sole out, the sooner a clear plan will come to u!!

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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by TomTom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:26 am

Maybe this will give you some ideas...

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62301

Matt Gent
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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by Matt Gent » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:08 am

Thanks for the info & link Tom. Looks like similar situation.

I will definitely be putting limber holes between all the cavities, and I'm deciding how much foam to go after and remove. May put an alternate flotation solution in there.

My first thought was to cut large panels out of the floor, leaving 2-3" around each of the frames. That was under the assumption that even a partially glued down floor would be destroyed trying to pull it up in one chunk. I'd need to make enough panels to drill to each of the cavities.

I'm really hoping it doesn't run forward of the large bulkhead at the back of the cabin. Even the forward portions of the cockpit sole are difficult as they are under the fuel tank boxes.

The only potential source of sea water intrusion in this boat is the scuppers. It has no hatches or access ports, no other through-hulls, high sides with lips. The floor is glassed / tabbed down all around. All the wiring / plumbing runs up in the gunnels, there aren't any tubes down under the sole. There are access ports on top of the fuel tank boxes, but they don't tie down below the floor. Those boxes probably need limber holes to the deck. It does have one hole on the bow deck for the anchor line, but that drains right overboard and doesn't hold water.

Also considering what to do with the scuppers, I may glass in a tube or box that completely separates them from the in-transom cavities. And I'm going to want the capability to plug them off.

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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by TomTom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:41 pm

Matt - really sorry - I know it is a gut wrenching feeling; there will be lots of guys on this forum that probably have and can make a boat where the sole is absolutely water tight - but I really think waters amazing ability to find a tiny gap is understated! I mean a 100 foot redwood tree gets water to its top leaves by nothing more than capillary action!!

Don’t be surprised if somewhere you find the tiniest crack you didn’t even see is the culprit.

I have thought about pouring my bouyancy foam in plastic bin liners set between the frames... and then having limber holes in each compartment to get any water that might by bad luck get in there drain towards a central bilge/ inspection area. This solves the problem of keeping the boat self bailing in the event of a catastrophe - and yet it would allow you to drain the hull.

I have read that many commercial boat manufactures some of do a similar thing - as it is so hard to totally seal the boat!! This subject is a hot-potato - so opinions will vary wildly!

I will watch with interest for an better solns that you come up with.

Once again - sorry!!

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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by topwater » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:16 am

This is how i did the scuppers on my NV 23
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Novi 23 finally launched !

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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by jacquesmm » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:11 am

My reply disappeared but here it is in a nutshell.
I agree that it almost certainly the scuppers if there was some PVC there. Even with epoxy, it is difficult to have a good bond between PVC and the glass. The PVC should be used as a mold, completely covered.
Some small gaps and leaks are difficult to see.

Repairs: once the leak is identified, if it is only in the rear compartment, it may not be necessary to open everything and remove the foam.
The waterline is only a few inches below the sole and water may have filled the other compartments flowing over the top of the frames.
Holes like you show may be sufficient to empty and then dry all those compartments. The water did not stay long in there. The foam is probably intact.

Let's find the leak first.

About the frames: they are under the upper frames.

About leaving a 2 to 3" offset around the compartments: IF you have to or want to open the whole thing, I like that idea.
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Matt Gent
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Re: DE25 Owner thread

Post by Matt Gent » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:58 am

Topwater - I like the permanent fiberglass tube option and that is a likely solution for me, or some variant of that.

Oval / racetrack shape makes sense for drainage, but makes it more difficult to plug. For cocktail nights when I might have 5-6 people sitting around the cockpit, I'd prefer to have a dry floor. Fabricating an effective plug for that would be tricky.

Does anyone have experience with a transom sock / elephant trunk scupper setup? It looks salty and simple. Seems to be most often associated with RIBs, maybe also lifeboats. This would also work best with a round exit through the transom rather than oval.

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The boat takes on so little water, the cockpit drains are really only there for rain on the trailer or at anchorage.

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