TW28 trailerability?

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by Rum Runner » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:15 am

icelikkilinc wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:20 pm
Woow 11 years ago, This was the day I got her out of the workshop. Had to cut steel roller doors to clear by 1 inch😬
Used a truck with crane for the 40 km journey to water
The antenna searchlight tower I installed on sea as I wouldnt be able to clear

Considering the keel depth to DWL, launching this off trailer would be really challenging.
I agree with JM to launch with a travel left

http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?pid=42303
Thanks for your real world feedback. I agree it may be a bit much for our intended use. I may have to continue my search. Trailerability is a must have.



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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by Rum Runner » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:30 am

jacquesmm wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:49 pm
OK then, let's say that it is just as trailerable as the Ranger 29.
When I see the world trailerable, I am thinking of an outboard powered center console or a small sailboat and that is why I wrote that she is not a trailerable boat.
I would not like to tow either the Ranger or the TW28 very often and I have some towing experience: since 10 years, I travel all over the US towing a 12,000 lbs 5th wheel.
If you want to tow the TW28, she has some advantages over the Ranger.

Built the right way, a TW28 will be lighter than a Ranger 29 by 1 or 2,000 lbs therefore easier to tow. The TW28 will sit little lower on the trailer. The TW28 height is 12' 2" while the Ranger is 13-3. This is very (VERY) important for bridges and cables. I think the legal cable height in the US is 15', the Ranger will be very close and I have been in the situation where I had turn around with a 20,000 lbs rig on a narrow road: not fun.
Last, the main advantage is the box keel. The TW28 has a wide keel and is very stable even dry. The keel gives very good support on the trailer: no stress on the bottom panel.

You"ll need a good towing vehicle, almost certainly with a diesel. I like my Dodger Ram 2500 with a Cummins, towing package, exhaust brake etc.
I would still launch and retrieve in a marina with a travel lift. I see that Ranger shows a Youtube video of launching a 29 on a ramp but I would not do it. However, from a towing point of view, anything you can do with a Ranger 29 can be done with the TW28.
With more thought and discussions, we have decided that trailerability is a must have on our list, so we will have to keep searching for the right plan. I have purchased plans from other designers, but did not feel they were complete enough for the home builder and I have many years of wood working experience. I am very impressed with your designs and the amount of information and feedback from yourself and the other builders on this forum. In searching your other plans, the only one that comes close to what we are looking for is the DE25. A very nice design as she sits, but a bit small for our plans for some extended use. We have been 8 months, living on our Tartan 37 and know what we can live with and without. I know this plan can be stretched by 10%, but is it not possible to increase all dimensions by 10%? this would still be a trailerable design, give more width for a four person dinette, and enough headroom to extend pilothouse roof over cockpit, allow for more storage, etc.

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by Fuzz » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:41 pm

When up sizing a set of plans I believe to best thing is to increase everything by the same amount. Not sure about the DE25 but JM will let you know for sure. If he misses this and does not reply do not be afraid to post the question in a new post.

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by fallguy1000 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:31 pm

Rum Runner wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:30 am
jacquesmm wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:49 pm
OK then, let's say that it is just as trailerable as the Ranger 29.
When I see the world trailerable, I am thinking of an outboard powered center console or a small sailboat and that is why I wrote that she is not a trailerable boat.
I would not like to tow either the Ranger or the TW28 very often and I have some towing experience: since 10 years, I travel all over the US towing a 12,000 lbs 5th wheel.
If you want to tow the TW28, she has some advantages over the Ranger.

Built the right way, a TW28 will be lighter than a Ranger 29 by 1 or 2,000 lbs therefore easier to tow. The TW28 will sit little lower on the trailer. The TW28 height is 12' 2" while the Ranger is 13-3. This is very (VERY) important for bridges and cables. I think the legal cable height in the US is 15', the Ranger will be very close and I have been in the situation where I had turn around with a 20,000 lbs rig on a narrow road: not fun.
Last, the main advantage is the box keel. The TW28 has a wide keel and is very stable even dry. The keel gives very good support on the trailer: no stress on the bottom panel.

You"ll need a good towing vehicle, almost certainly with a diesel. I like my Dodger Ram 2500 with a Cummins, towing package, exhaust brake etc.
I would still launch and retrieve in a marina with a travel lift. I see that Ranger shows a Youtube video of launching a 29 on a ramp but I would not do it. However, from a towing point of view, anything you can do with a Ranger 29 can be done with the TW28.
With more thought and discussions, we have decided that trailerability is a must have on our list, so we will have to keep searching for the right plan. I have purchased plans from other designers, but did not feel they were complete enough for the home builder and I have many years of wood working experience. I am very impressed with your designs and the amount of information and feedback from yourself and the other builders on this forum. In searching your other plans, the only one that comes close to what we are looking for is the DE25. A very nice design as she sits, but a bit small for our plans for some extended use. We have been 8 months, living on our Tartan 37 and know what we can live with and without. I know this plan can be stretched by 10%, but is it not possible to increase all dimensions by 10%? this would still be a trailerable design, give more width for a four person dinette, and enough headroom to extend pilothouse roof over cockpit, allow for more storage, etc.
Storing a boat in a slip is not cheap. I have been searching for the Skoota and expect 5-15k annual slip fees/costs.
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by icelikkilinc » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:39 pm

https://boatbuildercentral.com/support- ... -plans.pdf

Always a good read

As it is a much easier to scale, suggestion has been to order the metric plans and multiply all dimensions by 1.1

You will not be able to use layouts. JM calculates plywood use very carefully to minimise waste, when scaling you will be on your own

You also will require to add layers to bottom and might require additional stiffeners. JM usually advises on the best way forward. I would think at least an additional layer of 12 oz biax outside and internal extra stiffeners as you are extending designed frame spacing
Ilker

TW28 launch: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=23369

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by Rum Runner » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:48 pm

Thank you for the link. A great read indeed. It does mention that the DE25 is a stretched DE23, but in a post by Jacques, he mentions scaling is the way to go.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64736&p=463164&hilit=de27#p463164

I realize I would have to reconfigure all the nesting, but as long as I paid attention to the locations of panel splices this should be doable.

I am hoping Jacques will give me his opinion on scaling the DE25.

What extra scantlings will be required?

what the displacement will be?

recommended HP?

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by fallguy1000 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:34 pm

Start a new thread Rumrunner. dE25 questions..
My boat build is here -------->

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=62495

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by jacquesmm » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:36 am

From your link:
A Class B yacht ( boat ) is a vessel built to navigate on the offshore waters (200 miles and less) and can substain UP TO force 8 and waves UP TO 4 meters.

A Class C boat is a vessel built to navigate inshore such as lakes, rivers, bays and close to the shore and can sustain UP TO force 6 and waves UP TO 2 meters.
The TW28 is certainly C but could be B in the right hands. I would never go out in a small trawler in Force 6 but properly built, the TW28 can take it.
You can right away see the flaws in those definitions. Waves of 4 meters or more with a 60 seconds period are nothing but waves of 1 m with a 4 seconds period mean troubles for a small boat. And danger is close to the coast, not 200 miles offshore.

As I wrote, all that is based on classification rules which mostly take in account safety equipment.
Amateur built boats are not subject to ISO classification rules but in some countries, like France, they must have some features that allows them to go a certain distance from the shore. You have to register your boat in a certain category and you may be subject to inspections. For example, if you list your boat as Cat A, the inspector may disqualify or fine you because you don;t have the Class A liferaft etc.
Many years ago, I was acquainted with the famous French racer Halvard Mabire. He sailed a boat that was registered in class D and entered a race across the Atlantic with it. The French authorities were furious because he did not register or have his boat inspected for Class A. He had to leave a French port at night and cross the Channel to the start of the race in the UK. He crossed the Atlantic and did a good result but it was illegal and got fined. Thais was a class D boat, inshore only, max. 5 miles from the coast.
That is what the category system was in France.
When you buy a French built boat or one for the French market, the seller will tell you what category it is listed for.
I don't design for conformity to administrative rules, I design the boat for seaworthiness.

If know of no small trawler of 28 or 30' designed for extreme conditions. In every case, in that size boat, the limit is set by the crew: the boat can always take more than the crew.
If you want to build the TW28 for extreme conditions, you should consider reducing the size of the windows and add sealed seat boxes in the cockpit.
The hull and material are fine. The hull is closer to a troller than a trawler: well balanced, much more seaworthy than a trawler with a wide beam aft or the fake trawler hulls like the Ranger 29. That Ranger 29 is a planing hull with a trawler type superstructure. Pretty and probably well built but I would not like to be out on her in real bad weather. Ask for the curve of areas and compare to the TW28, it is clear.
If seaworthiness is your concern, the TW28 is a great boat but if you want conformity to a commercial class, you will have to submit my plans to an ISO certified design office. They charge about $ 3,000.00 and will tell you to install high stanchions, vent the fuel a certain way etc.
I design for conformity to ABYC rules which are close.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by jacquesmm » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:43 am

As you can see from the previous post, I am not a supporter of administrative rules applied to boating. It is one of the reasons of I moved from Europe to the US.
It looks like trailer ability is a must. I knew that dockage fees are high in Ontario but 10 to 15K is enormous.
And anyway, the boat should come out of the water in the winter.
I think the DE25 is a better candidate for you. I'll check on that thread.

BTW, were do you plan to use the boat? Great Lakes?
I have sailed there and understand that the seas can be steep and conditions difficult.
If you go further like the St Laurent, you need speed to fight the strong currents, that's another reason to look at the DE25.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

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Re: TW28 trailerability?

Post by Rum Runner » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:00 pm

We keep our Tartan 37 in Kingston on Lake Ontario. We plan to use the new boat mostly inland lakes, canals, but definitely some trips on the great lakes in settled conditions, trips south and maybe Bahamas. We will frequent St. Lawrence. I will look for your response on the other thread.

Thank You,
Trevor

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