Efficient cats

Questions and Answers about the Woods Designs, multihulls and others.
Post Reply
TomTom
Active Poster
Active Poster
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:29 am
Location: East Africa

Re: Efficient cats

Post by TomTom » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 pm

Ditto that .... And you don't have to feel like a mutineer for asking questions about Richard Woods designs on bateau.com! This is all very exciting stuff ... Pretty sure what my next set of boat plans will be



User avatar
jacquesmm
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 26169
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Efficient cats

Post by jacquesmm » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:10 pm

TomTom wrote:Ditto that .... And you don't have to feel like a mutineer for asking questions about Richard Woods designs on bateau.com! This is all very exciting stuff ... Pretty sure what my next set of boat plans will be

I love cats, owned a couple and always wanted to design some. The problem is what I wanted to design would have looked very much like Richard Woods designs and that makes little sense: he has the experience, a nice portfolio of proven designs and I have way too many other design projects anyway.
I asked Richard for a design similar to the Jarcat and he pulled out the concept drawing for the Saylon.
I love that little boat, great program. I'll post it soon at bateau.com.
I need a few more days to list the Skootas and some other with nice study plans pages.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

Woods Designs
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:20 am
Location: UK and PNW

Re: Efficient cats

Post by Woods Designs » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:52 pm

Great to read such positive comments!

I have made a good start on the Saylon plans. By the end of the week I will have enough drawn for me or Jacques to build the hulls, but it will be a couple more weeks until they are detailed enough for home builders

Richard Woods

Saqa
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:39 am
Location: Fiji

Re: Efficient cats

Post by Saqa » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:39 pm

What is the Saylon?

SalmonMan
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:20 am

Re: Efficient cats

Post by SalmonMan » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:01 am

jacquesmm wrote:I agree, the concept will work. It is a boat plan that will sell.
That sounds great Jacques! Where do we go from here to get a displacement power cat designed?
Woods Designs wrote:This video shows my decked Skoota hull being carried by 6 men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k-LHu2 ... FTg2BjcbqA

So you want two hulls like that? Is that light enough?

I have done many open deck catamaran designs so no there will be problems there, we just need to sort out the basic deck layout options

Richard Woods of Woods Designs
I'll ask you the same question as I asked Jacques. Where do we go from here to get a displacement power cat designed?

I'm ready to buy the plans and build.

Woods Designs
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:20 am
Location: UK and PNW

Re: Efficient cats

Post by Woods Designs » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:07 am

Saqa wrote:What is the Saylon?
it's the 20ft Motor sailer cat, see the thread below this one

Richard Woods

User avatar
jacquesmm
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 26169
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Efficient cats

Post by jacquesmm » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:30 am

Question for Saqa and Salmon Man (and others who want to join):
We could design a layout the Sliver picture you posted but
- a head in that forward cuddy cabin will be very tight and low. I think we need a head to sell plans.
- The Sliver cockpit is too shallow. The coaming is below the knee cap. Look at the pictures on the Sliver web site, it is clear. that is why they have a railing. is that acceptable?
- The Sliver is not a real walk around layout, is that OK?
- There will be a wide side deck, between cockpit and side. On the Sliver it is rounded, not easy when boarding. We can do better but it will still be about the same width.
- One big advantage over the Sliver is that the boat can be taken apart for transport to the launch site, if needed.
Richard will correct me if I said something wrong.

Imagine this boat with a deck layout like the Sliver 29:
Image
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

Woods Designs
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:20 am
Location: UK and PNW

Re: Efficient cats

Post by Woods Designs » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:41 am

SalmonMan wrote:
I'll ask you the same question as I asked Jacques. Where do we go from here to get a displacement power cat designed?

I'm ready to buy the plans and build.
Jacques and I are still discussing the way forward, it's slower than we would like as we are in different countries and time zones. I am out all day today but hope to look at the fishing cat ideas this weekend (if I don't go sailing, which is what I would prefer to do - sorry!)

We don't want to "design by committee" but just to recap on what you guys want:

Around 30ft long, open deck, something like the Sliver 29. About 14ft wide so it fits in a standard dock. twin 40hp outboards to give speeds in the low 20's with 4-6 people on board. A range of 150 miles

I envision a small central cuddy/steering console say 8ft? x 4ft?, not more, with wheel at the front and space for a small galley and heads behind. Maybe a "crew berth" in a hull somewhere. A bimini/rain cover over just the central area. The cockpit floor taken out to about 6in from the hull sides. Live?/dead? fish holds in the hulls under the cockpit floor. Only a trampoline forward of the wheel bulkhead, again like Sliver.

The cockpit back will go across to the hulls, access will be via the hull transom steps as on Sliver. The Sunreef sketch doesn't show how the boat is held together, if it was built that way in wood, with no aft beam, it would fall apart! Having said that, it would be easy to have an aft platform behind the beam, and a low section to step over (say 250mm) it just cannot be completely open as sketched.

And anyway, seems to me that it is a bad idea to have a boat where it would be easy to fall out the back, especially when you do it just in front of two big props

Possibly the major design problem is that to be "sexy" and to reduce weight, freeboard wants to be as low as possible. However the higher the bridgedeck floor/cockpit the better to avoid wave slap, 400mm is a minimum, 600 would be better. Those two are contradictory requirements unfortunately. So the important things to know are, how deep should the cockpit floor be relative to the gunwale for fishing. And is it acceptable to have a railing round the cockpit (I suspect the Sliver has one for the same reasons I just outlined). Is 2ft enough? 30in to top of railing or more?

Just some ideas right now, must go, more later but we will welcome your comments today (I think Jacques posted the same time as me, saying the same thing)

Richard Woods

Saqa
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:39 am
Location: Fiji

Re: Efficient cats

Post by Saqa » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:53 am

Jacques, Richard
Guys I appreciate the effort you guys are making on this. Again, its easy to see why you guys have such a staunch following. So thanks for your time and effort. I will try to address the points you have raised that has an impact on the Jigging and popping sportfishing where my interests line and to which the bluewater scene is evolving towards. I'll try to also find some videos of actual fishing action where you can see how current boats are behaving...thanks again

Saqa
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:39 am
Location: Fiji

Re: Efficient cats

Post by Saqa » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:29 pm

jacquesmm wrote:Question for Saqa and Salmon Man (and others who want to join):
We could design a layout the Sliver picture you posted but
Jacques
The Silver 29 is the type of displacement cat I am interested in but it does not have an optimised layout for heavy bluewater sportfishing. That boat is more geared towards trolling and more relaxed fishing styles

The bluewater fishing in US, Aus, UAE, Asia and Pacific has reached some standards where 'small' offshore boats charters or private are concerned. A very important point to consider is fishing tackle power

The tackle seen as standard is a spinning reel of about 1kg weight that holds about 300 yards of 100lb spectra on a very thin but powerful nano carbon resin composite rod and the combination can sustain a direct connection that can read 30kg or more with very strong guys and average around 20kg. The reels alone are in the $1500 class. The fish targeted can bring guys to their knees with the power that reel/rod can deliver. This is the thrill. So what is underfoot is very important

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aop9t3Wm6lk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K60e-wEqaY
These two vids represent where bluewater sportfishing is evolving. Tuna and amberjack are the main targets in USA and Mediterranean and they are even bigger then the Pacific targets on the same tackle
- a head in that forward cuddy cabin will be very tight and low. I think we need a head to sell plans.
For the operation I want to run, a sitting room cubicle with a composting bowel, side deck cubicle access for some sense of privacy for any females on board. Located to one side of the console/dash area of the cabin. A standing room only urinal cubicle in one rear corner of the cabin. Ocean flushed with saltwater be how I would set that up. I have been on quite a few charters where ladies been present. It can get quite messy for guys to pee into a bowel and ladies tend to stay in discomfort
- The Sliver cockpit is too shallow. The coaming is below the knee cap. Look at the pictures on the Sliver web site, it is clear. that is why they have a railing. is that acceptable?
For purposes, the sides on the Silver are fine, rails just below crotch height are important. Side, rear and fore. Low sides are good looking and good for less windage on a vessel that fishes from idle a lot. A coaming or rails would need tow rails
- The Sliver is not a real walk around layout, is that OK?
Not really ok, if that arched deck area is needed for structural beams then they should at least have steps. If I have to live with it I would put a spring loaded gate at the top of the steps and train the decky to guide anyone on a fish through that. Flat is better though
- There will be a wide side deck, between cockpit and side. On the Sliver it is rounded, not easy when boarding. We can do better but it will still be about the same width.
The more side deck the better in my experience. Very hard to lean/sit back to use body weight to offset the connection to the fish otherwise
- One big advantage over the Sliver is that the boat can be taken apart for transport to the launch site, if needed.
Richard will correct me if I said something wrong.
That is an awesome feature, especially during cyclone season and changing location to fish tournaments, especially for a lucrative charter
Imagine this boat with a deck layout like the Sliver 29:
Image
Looks the goods, looks like we are speaking the same language :D
Woods Designs wrote:
SalmonMan wrote:
I'll ask you the same question as I asked Jacques. Where do we go from here to get a displacement power cat designed?

I'm ready to buy the plans and build.
Jacques and I are still discussing the way forward, it's slower than we would like as we are in different countries and time zones. I am out all day today but hope to look at the fishing cat ideas this weekend (if I don't go sailing, which is what I would prefer to do - sorry!)

We don't want to "design by committee" but just to recap on what you guys want:
I do appreciate the opportunity to submit what I would like to see on a boat of this type, thanks for the chance. Ultimately its in your hands
Around 30ft long, open deck, something like the Sliver 29. About 14ft wide so it fits in a standard dock. twin 40hp outboards to give speeds in the low 20's with 4-6 people on board. A range of 150 miles
Pertfect!!!
I envision a small central cuddy/steering console say 8ft? x 4ft?, not more, with wheel at the front and space for a small galley and heads behind. Maybe a "crew berth" in a hull somewhere. A bimini/rain cover over just the central area. The cockpit floor taken out to about 6in from the hull sides.
Maybe a bit longer rear bias. As in reply to Jacques, one wall of cabin with sitter towards the front and stander at back, the other wall with longer bench that can fold out for decky bed maybe?
Live?/dead? fish holds in the hulls under the cockpit floor.
If there is space there or maybe the hulls, insulated storage of course. A livewell for bait around 50L be pretty handy at the back between the outboards. Would simplify plumbing too and can double as seating there
Only a trampoline forward of the wheel bulkhead, again like Sliver.
If the boat can handle the weight there then aluminum mesh or flat deck be good to have. The foredeck is the most important casting area as there are least opportunities for accidents at that location. People or tackle damaging
The cockpit back will go across to the hulls, access will be via the hull transom steps as on Sliver. The Sunreef sketch doesn't show how the boat is held together, if it was built that way in wood, with no aft beam, it would fall apart! Having said that, it would be easy to have an aft platform behind the beam, and a low section to step over (say 250mm) it just cannot be completely open as sketched. And anyway, seems to me that it is a bad idea to have a boat where it would be easy to fall out the back, especially when you do it just in front of two big props
Fully open back would be a bad idea in other ways as well. See the tackle loading on the body in the vids above. Something close to the coaming/rails be ok or even full height there with a door. Can accommodate a bench there or livewell or other storage just like monohulls
Possibly the major design problem is that to be "sexy" and to reduce weight, freeboard wants to be as low as possible.
As above in reply to Jacques, rails!! Any coaming height is fine. For my use crotch height rails are important
However the higher the bridgedeck floor/cockpit the better to avoid wave slap, 400mm is a minimum, 600 would be better. Those two are contradictory requirements unfortunately. So the important things to know are, how deep should the cockpit floor be relative to the gunwale for fishing. And is it acceptable to have a railing round the cockpit (I suspect the Sliver has one for the same reasons I just outlined). Is 2ft enough? 30in to top of railing or more?
The casting and fishing platform is at an optimum about 700mm above waterline. Too low and the rod sweeps foul with the water and too high the lure doesnt swim back right. 500 to 1000mm is the range I aim for. Fishing decks level with cockpit floor are best. A bit or coaming if needed for looks or structural reasons plus rails around the lot
Just some ideas right now, must go, more later but we will welcome your comments today (I think Jacques posted the same time as me, saying the same thing)

Richard Woods
Thanks again for the opportunity for input guys. Will be good to see a design that I can build. Would about a 1yrs build time be reasonable for a project like this? I have seen some cats that seem fore ever to build. I would expect to put in a good 6-10hrs a day 5 days or so into it and would prolly have a labor for the fun bits like sanding and extra hand while cutting and fixing and mixing. I should mention again that I would build with synthetics like PVC core or PP Honeycomb or a combination of both

I have seen Jacques mention that its possible to build his designs in other flat material like alloy and such but the task is up to the builder to sort out the strengths and material thickness and such. Plan for this year is to build a half scale boat along similar lines out of HDPE for personal use and to improve my skills with that material and study it for the larger commercial boat. The charter operation is going to be my working retirement so I too will be building your design when if and when it becomes available. If I cant beat SalmonMan then I will be second!! :D

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest