Modern pour foam

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OrangeQuest

Re: Modern pour foam

Post by OrangeQuest » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:41 pm

Capt UB wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:17 pm
OQ,
I got water, beer and blood mostly in the bilge. Last time I can remember having oil/gas in the bilge, was the days of cheap fuel tanks and old 2 strokes. Jeff (BBC) said it all about foam, do not cut it, if you do seal it with epoxy. I still like pool noodles, out of the sun's UV's they would last a long time.

Bob.
I don't know about you but I get a lot of young ladies on my boats and they love using baby oils, sun tan oils and lotions. 8)



Matt Gent
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Re: Modern pour foam

Post by Matt Gent » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:03 am

OrangeQuest wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:41 pm
I don't know about you but I get a lot of young ladies on my boats and they love using baby oils, sun tan oils and lotions. 8)
And they often provide their own augmented flotation 8O

BET
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Re: Modern pour foam

Post by BET » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:08 pm

Does anyone know the details on the testing done by the coast guard to "approve" flotation materials?

OrangeQuest

Re: Modern pour foam

Post by OrangeQuest » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:34 pm

BET wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:08 pm
Does anyone know the details on the testing done by the coast guard to "approve" flotation materials?
Sounds like you are asking about getting the type of floatation approved. Coast does not test the floatation they set the standards. An approved Universal Lab does the testing and certifies that it meets the USCG standards. I read not long ago all the requirements floatation material has to go through to get approved.

Here is a requirement link for what you need to be USCG approved but I don't think it applies to home built boats.

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/ ... nloads.php

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Re: Modern pour foam

Post by BET » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:26 pm

right right the coast guard sets the standards not doing the actual testing ,apologies. I don't care about being coast guard approved or not, I am just trying to find the "best" methods/materials for building a boat

So based on the link you sent, If I am reading it correctly, for a material to pass as a coast guard approved flotation material it has to meet the following requirements (copied below)

The only other test I could find that just referred to buoyancy in water said the boat (with said flotation material) had to stay afloat for 18 hours (following all their guidelines for letting water in boat/compartments)

Just trying to figure out whats so important about a material being coast guard approved when it looks like all it means is that it doesn't degrade in fuel, oil, or bilge cleaner. These things don't really matter when discussing foaming a sealed compartment.

I guess what I was hoping was something along the lines of "must not gain more than XX grams of weight after being submerged for XX days/weeks/years" or "must maintain buoyancy for XX number of years after installation"

Pg 55
http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/ ... nloads.php

183.114 Test of flotation materials.
(a) Vapor test. The flotation material must not reduce in buoyant force
more than 5 percent after being immersed in a fully saturated gasoline
vapor atmosphere for 30 days at a minimum temperature of 38 deg. C.
(b) 24-hour gasoline test. The flotation material must not reduce in
buoyant force more than 5 percent after being immersed for 24 hours at
23 plus or minus 2 deg.C in reference fuel B, of ASTM D 471
(incorporated by reference, see Sec. 183.5).
(c) 30-day gasoline test. The flotation material must not reduce in buoyant
force more than 5 percent after being immersed for 30 days at 23 plus or
minus 2 deg.C in reference fuel B, of ASTM D 471 (incorporated by
reference, see Sec. 183.5).
(d) 24-hour oil test. The flotation material must not reduce in buoyant force
more than 5 percent after being immersed for 24 hours at 23 plus or
minus 2 deg.C in reference oil No. 2, of ASTM D 471 (incorporated by
reference, see Sec. 183.5).
(e) 30-day oil test. The flotation material must not reduce in buoyant force
more than 5 percent after being immersed for 30 days at 23 plus or
minus 2 deg.C in reference oil No. 2, of ASTM D 471 (incorporated by
reference, see Sec. 183.5).
(f) 24-hour bilge cleaner test. The flotation material must not reduce in
buoyant force more than 5 percent after being immersed for 24 hours at
23 plus or minus 2 deg.C in a 5-percent solution of trisodium phosphate
in water.
(g) 30-day bilge cleaner test. The flotation material must not reduce in
buoyant force more than 5 percent after being immersed for 30 days at
23 plus or minus 2 deg.C in a 5-percent solution of trisodium phosphate
in water.
(h) The buoyant force reduction in paragraphs (a) through (g) of this
section is measured in accordance with ASTM D 2842 (incorporated by
reference, see Sec. 183.5).

OrangeQuest

Re: Modern pour foam

Post by OrangeQuest » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:10 pm

Not sure again what you are getting at? The floatation material being tested needs all that. Then the boat with it's floatation material must stay at any of the 3 different levels of being submerged. And compartments must be vented as to not trap air. These standards are for manufacturers that make boats and then sell them to the public. As a home made boat builder you do not have to go through the same tests that manufacturers do.

As a boat builder you can use what ever material you would like to build your boat and to keep it afloat if it gets swamped, but using material that has been tested and then certified to meet USCG standards would be a smart way to go.

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Re: Modern pour foam

Post by cracked_ribs » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:13 pm

BET wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:26 pm
whats so important about a material being coast guard approved when it looks like all it means is that it doesn't degrade in fuel, oil, or bilge cleaner. These things don't really matter when discussing foaming a sealed compartment.

I guess what I was hoping was something along the lines of "must not gain more than XX grams of weight after being submerged for XX days/weeks/years" or "must maintain buoyancy for XX number of years after installation"
But...why would either of the second criteria matter if you're operating from the assumption that the chambers have remained perfectly sealed?

And if they haven't remained perfectly sealed...then isn't resistance to exactly the types of contaminants likely to be found on board boats that suddenly REALLY need their floatation to be working at least as important as whether the foam has retained 93% or 95% of its buoyancy?

I have dug seriously saturated foam out of a forty year old hull before...that foam still floated like a cork and would have held up the boat if it was swamped after punching a log through the hull, tearing open the chambers. Locally that's common enough that I've seen it on two hulls, personally. Both made it home fine on old, relatively wet foam. But if that foam hadn't resisted fuel or other solvents, it wouldn't have just been working at diminished capacity, it would have been goo and if I needed it, it wouldn't be there at all.

That's why the USCG specs solvent resistance, not just maximal floatation values.

OrangeQuest

Re: Modern pour foam

Post by OrangeQuest » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:57 pm

Here is a little something I found on a site that sells the foam in there Q & A section
Q. Do I need to paint or fiberglass over the floatation foam?


A. You probably should. Polyurethane will absorb a small amount of water, because some of the the cells are open (95%+ are closed, though). Painting or glassing will seal the foam and prevent any water absorption. However, it really shouldn’t be necessary unless the foam is constantly immersed in water, such as in a boat with bilges that are always wet. The foam is not UV resistant, so it must be painted if exposed to sunlight.

silentneko
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Re: Modern pour foam

Post by silentneko » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:09 pm

I posted this on my build thread after some discussion
My apologies if it has been gone over here already.

"It is urethane foam! and like all urethane products it is listed as "Water resistant", not water proof like epoxy. it will resist water for a time, that is the nature of a closed cell foam, but will eventually break down in it's presence. No where in a boat should water be allowed to come into direct contact with it, outside of a catastrophic emergency. The skin it forms is the most/only durable part, if it is breached it needs to be repaired with resin or much of the integrity is lost. 

Seriously guys think about it, we use epoxy to build because the polyester resins will eventually lead to rotted wood, and poly resin FRP is much more durable/water resistant then a light foam. Use it wisely."

Obviously we were discussing mostly water intrusion, but any oil, gas, sun block, cleaners..... can accelerate the absorption if they come into contact.

The coast Guard require only 5% loss at 30 days. Well why not 0%? If your foam degrades enough to take on water at 30 days by 5%, then after 6 months it could be upwards of 30%? So I will repeat, water (or anything else) should not be allowed to contact the foam, imo.
Built: 15ft Skiff, 16ft Skiff, Modified Cheap Canoe.....FS17 coming soon!

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Re: Modern pour foam

Post by silentneko » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:12 pm

Oh and please don't use pool noodles. I had one in the pool under the cover for a few months and it turned to crumbly goop.

I like to ping pong/ball pit idea, but that's a lot of air space in between them not helping.
Built: 15ft Skiff, 16ft Skiff, Modified Cheap Canoe.....FS17 coming soon!

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