Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

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Poker
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Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by Poker » Fri May 28, 2010 7:51 pm

Don't want to waste anyone's time so I'll keep it brief and to the point.

Want to build sail boat w/ my kids as summer project.

Would be sailing on Lake Texoma - fairly big lake, prone to good chop in strong winds.

Like the looks & Size of the Cat Ketch (CK17).

Want a simple sail .. Bermudan (?) - the 2 sails of the CK17 look hard to learn with.

Is there an alternative with the following traits:

Over 15 feet (I'm a big guy - 300+lbs)
Stable ! 2 kids (10 &8) to watch out for. ;-)
Fun & easy to build
Fun & easy to sail.

Can the CK17 be adapted to move the mast further back like a sloop (?)

Apologies if I have my sail names are wrong ... I've been trying to learn the types and what would work best for me.

Crap - you can move this to the sail forum if you'd like.
Last edited by Poker on Fri May 28, 2010 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.



D2Maine
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Re: Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by D2Maine » Fri May 28, 2010 7:58 pm

nm
Last edited by D2Maine on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by TomW » Fri May 28, 2010 8:02 pm

A Cat is actually very easy to sail. You don't have to mess with the jib or it's halyards and lines.

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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by PAR » Sat May 29, 2010 2:31 am

I think the Sharpie 14 as well as the CK 17 would be well suited. The simplicity of the Sharpie 14 is desirable, it's easy to build , cheap to own and operate and easy to sail. The CK 17 is a much bigger boat, having considerably (possibly twice as much) more internal volume, which can be directly related to build and effort expenditures.

I'd recommend the CK 17, because the boat will offer a stable, forgiving platform as you learn how to sail, but can reward you with some exciting sailing when you get more skills. It also has the volume to carry a small crowd for an afternoon sail.

Don't be afraid of the cat ketch rig, it one of the best small boat rigs going. It has much less tipping leverage then single stick boats of the same sail area, so the boat is more comfortable to sail, especially for beginners. The rig is also very handy in tight maneuvering and working off off a beach. Most that learn with the cat ketch soon learn to love them and will have nothing else.

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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by Poker » Sat May 29, 2010 9:02 am

Thanks for the replies.

I have been casting about the internet and have, I think, mostly boiled it down to 2.

The Cat Ketch and one from a New Zealander designer called a Navigator.

The positives of the Navigator are its width (beam ?) and multiple chines - seems more stable, and it has plans for the sail set up I think I'd prefer.

However .... the build looks more complicated, and I can't see the study plans without paying money.

Honestly ... I like the Bateau boats set up of allowing you to see the study plans ... I like the set up here, as well as so much helpfullness ... seems silly, but I feel a stronger preference to try and build a Bateau design ... it's just that I cannot find a boat like the Navigator here .. unless I'm missing something ?

I hope I have not crossed a line by mentioning a different designer's boat - if so I'll happily edit it out.

So . in short ... I feel a kinship to build a Bateau .. but I like a different boat and am trying to compromise.
Will look at the Sharpie 14 again and see if it grows on me.

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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by gk108 » Sat May 29, 2010 10:59 am

Navigator is a nice boat, but you are right, it's more complicated to build and more expensive to build. The multiple chines and lapstrake construction make for a strong hull, but requires a lot of epoxy for gluing the seams. If you decide that you want to sheath that hull with fiberglass, it will be a difficult job over the lapped strakes. Compare to: "The Cat Ketch 17 is built the Sharpie way: two sides panels are bent around a frame and joined at the bow and the transom. The bottom is flat in section but with some small rocker." Much simpler and faster to get the hull together. I don't know what your skill level is, but I wouldn't have tried the Navigator as my first build. I might give it a shot now, but it's not quite the boat for me.

Then, there's the rigging...Navigator has 2 masts, 1 with stays, 3 booms, boomkin and a bowsprit to control 3 sails totalling 136 sq. ft. If you trailer the boat, all of that has to be set up each time you launch. Compare that to: "plain unstayed masts with laced sails and simple sprits." CK17 is easier and less expensive to rig and the 118 sq. ft. of sail area will provide plenty of power for that hull shape. Two lines to control each sail and one of them doesn't get adjusted much, so really only one for each sail. For a novice sailor, learning to balance the draw of two sails will be easier than learning to balance 3 sails.

If you keep the boat at a marina that charges by the foot, they will most likely charge for the overall length, including the bowsprit and boomkin on the Navigator, making it more expensive to own, too.

With the simpler rig, the CK17 has less clutter in the cockpit and that makes everything you do on the water much easier. CK17 can be built with dedicated camp-cruising features while Navigator has little in the way of accomodations for anything other than daysailing and sleeping on the covering boards.

I'm not the type to bet on sailboat racing, but I'd like to see those two boats go at it one time. I kinda think that the CK17 is faster, too.

So, faster to build, faster to launch and faster on the water. What are you waiting for? :lol:
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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by Poker » Sat May 29, 2010 4:54 pm

gk108 ... I see your point about the navigator .. although there is a bermudan sail version, which is the one I was thinking of ... but I agree the build does intimidate me.

I really do like the CK17 ...... but in looking at the Sharpie 14 .. I'm thinking that is the easiest to build.

So ... is there a major difference in building the Sharpie 14 with a boom and triangular sail, rather then the one it shows in the study plan ?

I know ... I'm stuck in having a bermudan sail, with a possible jib, but I understand the principle of rigging that sail .. more so than any of the others.

As for sailing experience ... I went swimming once, does that count ? :)

Anyone reading here know the stability of the Sharpie 14 ? Again ... my concern is for 2 kids, 10 & 8, who can swim, and would be wearing life vests at ALL times, but I'd rather not capsize with them onboard !
Being 300+ lbs, am I going to swamp the boat just stepping on board ? - no, serious question ... really.

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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by gstanfield » Sat May 29, 2010 5:36 pm

I personally would want to go bigger than the shapie14. I'd go ahead and stickw ith the cat17 seeing as how those kids are going to keep growing (I think that's how it works) and while the 14 may get you by for now, there is more room to expand with the 17.

You're looking at an additional 1-1/2' of beam and 3' of length which means the 17 is a much larger boat in comparison. Go ahead and build the largest that you can now, it beats "wishing you woulda" next year. I know almost nothing about sailboats, but I am about 85% finished on my FL14 and already wish I had built a bigger boat, even though this one has never been in the water. :D

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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by wegcagle » Sat May 29, 2010 6:47 pm

What about the CV16? V-hull, wide, stable, not a cat ketch, and longer than the Sharpie. Just a thought, I gotta say I'm not a sailor......yet. So I'm just throwing out options :D

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Re: Jacques - Need advice - what sail boat for beginner ?

Post by gstanfield » Sat May 29, 2010 7:50 pm

Good suggestion. With the pram style bow (flat nosed) it is almost identical in terms of practical size to the 17 footer. Think of it as just cutting off the pointy part of the CK17 :)

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