Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

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fallguy1000
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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by fallguy1000 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:17 pm

I still don't understand why a top laminate on the sole wouldn't support the stringers more.

All build theory would support the concept.

Pressures exerted on the hull from below push up. The stringers push up then on the sole. So, my boat, I simply add a layer of 12 oz glass to the sole above the stringers. This aids the stringers with the glass in the right place even versus the bottom which would help less.

It is a far better option and helps a bunch and gives you peace of mind they won't break at the tape joins.

Since you have furniture in there; it isn't even the full sole anymore and the weight adder is say ?12x2 feet, call it 3 yards of glass and epoxy or like 5 pounds

Hopefully Jacques will consider this as an option; thus my repeating.


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Aripeka Angler
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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by Aripeka Angler » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:08 pm

In my opinion, copious details posted about boats other than the FS17 doesn’t really help with assessing this situation.
Woven 6 ounce fabric used in a brand X build is irrelevant and clouds the methods that the builder actually used to assemble his boat.
Relevant posts or a good summary of how the boat was actually put together are covered up by nonessential details.
Jacques, about 20 minutes of viewing Narfi’s build thread photos should give you all the documentation you need.
Richard
Completed boats...XF20 "Red Alert", Aripeka Angler's Strip Canoe, FS18 “Bare Bones”, GF12
Currently building...PY12 Kayak
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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by fallguy1000 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:43 am

Aripeka Angler wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:08 pm
In my opinion, copious details posted about boats other than the FS17 doesn’t really help with assessing this situation.
Woven 6 ounce fabric used in a brand X build is irrelevant and clouds the methods that the builder actually used to assemble his boat.
Relevant posts or a good summary of how the boat was actually put together are covered up by nonessential details.
Jacques, about 20 minutes of viewing Narfi’s build thread photos should give you all the documentation you need.
Not sure if you are directing this to me, but my post isn't about any other specific boat, but ANY boat.

A stiffer sole will offset a weaker stringer layup to a degree Is it perfect? No, the hull can still flex, but the stiffer sole WILL translate to a stiffer stringer below. Just think i-beam. The vertical section flexes less with stiffer horizontals. Ideal i beam? No, but better than an i beam with a weak vertical. Of course, this doesn't alleviate the hull flexing near the tapes, but with the rest of his build and the bottom design(as you state); it seems less likely than more to be a problem.

And I only offer as a suggestion or alternative if the designer doesn't consider it or forgets.

Stiffness of thin plywood is greatly enhanced with fiberglass. I don't know the thickness of the sole, but a 6mm sole with lite glass is in the order of twice as stiff as no glass and heavier glass is much stiffer. The sole stiffness would help the stringers flex less in the Y direction and this would protect his tapes.

Additionally, if you were going to apply four tapes to the stringers and forgot, the weight delta is even lower than my 5# estimate because technically he is underweight now by I'd say about that much. So any extra sole glass is a net nothing ftmp.

If you weren't aiming towards me, please forgive me for ranting. I am layin on a heating pad nursing my back and just killin time soes I don't fall asleep on the heat or need pain meds.
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Fuzz
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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by Fuzz » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:13 am

Narfi I just hate this happened to you. I went to page 41 of your build thread. It sure looks like you used 12oz and did a good job with it. I am waiting like many others to see what Jacques has to say.

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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by OneWayTraffic » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:54 am

If it helps I can tell you for a fact that the OB17 plans call for a single layer of 12oz on the stringers. The rest of the layup is slightly heavier than the FS17. The OB17 is capable of more speed.

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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by OrangeQuest » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:45 am

jacquesmm wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:21 pm
I will reply in detail tomorrow but at first, I read that it was 6 oz., not 12. If it is 12 oz. one layer plus the foam, it may be OK.
I would wait for this advise to be confirmed.
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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by silentneko » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:01 am

Aripeka Angler wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:08 pm
In my opinion, copious details posted about boats other than the FS17 doesn’t really help with assessing this situation.
Woven 6 ounce fabric used in a brand X build is irrelevant and clouds the methods that the builder actually used to assemble his boat.
Relevant posts or a good summary of how the boat was actually put together are covered up by nonessential details.
Jacques, about 20 minutes of viewing Narfi’s build thread photos should give you all the documentation you need.
This was probably directed at me, and in my opinion you are wrong. All the boats mentioned are of similar size weight and programmed use to this one and there are many ways to skin a cat as witnessed on this forum as almost no boat is built exactly to plans.
That said, the main reason most of us are commenting is to support a guy and a great builder who is in panic mode right now. Rallying against us I feel does the opposite.
Built: 15ft Skiff, 16ft Skiff, Modified Cheap Canoe.....FS17 coming soon!

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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by fallguy1000 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:19 am

Really, the designer could even require a horsepower adjustment.

It may be unneeded, but it is another way to deal with the issue. And Narfi probably has his heart set; so scares me to mention.

Surely, higher horsepower boats must be built better hulls.

I suppose Richard thinks we are all adding confusion and he has a point for sure, but like Neko says; we all mean the best by it. Kind regards to all forum members.
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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by jacquesmm » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:44 am

Let me read the complete build history of this boat. It can take me a couple of hours. I can't remember the details of all the boats listed on the forum, each builder does it his way but I remember that Narfi did a good job and that is in his favor.
Please be patient.

It is correct that HP and weight play an important role. The slamming loads are a direct function of the weight and a square function of the speed.
An FS17 running at 30 mph will experience loads more than 2 times higher than one running 20 mph.
Plus, if the boat is 3,000 lbs instead of 2,000, that makes it 1.5 times higher. In my example, speed and weight combined, the heavier faster boat is subject to 3 times higher loads on the bottom.
The FS17 is designed as seaworthy but relatively light boat.

Back to reading the whole threads now, give me some time.
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Re: Question for Jacques - FS17 Lamination mistake

Post by narfi » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:35 am

jacquesmm wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:44 am

Plus, if the boat is 3,000 lbs instead of 2,000, that makes it 1.5 times higher.
Like you said, I built it heavy.
Your plans say basic hull is 315 so call mine 500lbs?
250lb motor.
150lbs of battery, cables, and steering?
19gal fuel - 114

Total without people or gear is roughly 1014lbs

Typical loading would be same as luxury camping our hc14 which we paddled out 5 miles with a big tent, air mattresses, sleeping bags and lots of food.
2 people plus 100-150lbs of gear....
Say 600lbs typical load.

That's total of 1600lbs typical on the lake....
Obviously sometimes less..... just Landon fishing as a teen..... 200-300lbs with gear very conservative
And sometimes heavier.... say two dads and two boys camping...... or maybe I talk my wife into "roughing" it with us....
800lbs of people and 200 lbs of gear probably the heaviest I will load it comes to 2000lbs.
We do not carry water or ice here, there is no need. So that helps keep me lighter than some others even if built heavier.
Camping I just throw frozen steaks, bacon, burgers and hotdogs in a thin rubbermaid tote and it stays cool for a night or two.

I had talked about another bench seat earlier in the build process, but have already realized the boat isnt big enough for that, so have no intention of doing that anymore.

The motor is already purchased and has been flown out to my remote village, so as fallguy states I am somewhat committed to it.

I have really enjoyed the building and interacting with you and other builders here. I hope you dont get lost in my very long build thread, it documents all my learning and confusion and banter with those I now consider friends.

The sides are very stiff, I used 4 layers of 1/4 for the rubrail and the gunwale is 8" wide with 3/8" tops doubled to 3/4 around all the holes. The side bulkheads instead of minimum 3" are closer to 24 inches wide each. (Pretty much to the stringers)
Not sure what other info I can give, it is all in my build thread.
The sole is covered with 6oz woven.

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