New designs or changes, how to get it done.

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jacquesmm
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New designs or changes, how to get it done.

Post by jacquesmm » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:40 am

Instead of discussing changes ad nauseam, why don't we discuss the boat you really want?
There is a method to it:
1. Try to describe the boat and it's program in a short sentence. For example, a power boat that a family of 4 would mostly use to go to the inlet beach on week-ends and occasionally for inshore fishing. Or, a sailboat for week-end cruises able to go to Catalina Island in moderate weather and accomodate 4 for up to a week. Try your own but keep it short.
That description will force you to make some choices because you can't have it all in one boat.
2. Set your budget realistically with a time table for expenditures.
3. Select a building material and method.


All those factors influence each other: if your budget is $ 10,000.00 over 3 years and you want a 31' inboard to run to the canyon, you have a problem. Solve that problem before arguing about the boat's layout on this board. :doh:
Once you have a clear program defined with the elements above, see if one of our boats fits the bill. If not, post a message with your program and we will respond.
We take realistic demands for a new design seriously
but we can not make the big investment that a new design requires unless we feel that the project is well thought and feasible.

About changes:
Some changes are simply impossible, technically impossible.
You can ask it as many times as you want but to put a big inboard diesel in a hull that is designed to be light will not work. Even if you squeeze the engine in there, the performance will be bad and we do not want to design that change.
Imagine that you want a Lamborghini but ask the factory to put a Caterpillar diesel in there. That's what is asked here sometimes and we can't do that, take our word for it please. But we can design a good boat with a diesel engine if you request something reasonable.
Put it another way and say:
" I want a boat with the accomodations of the DE25 but with a diesel engine , a top speed of 30 mph and a 200 NM range. My budget is $ 10,000.00 over 2 years."

We will respond: can do but budget must be $ 25,000.00 unless you reduce top speed to 12 mph or will install a used diesel.
And we can go from there.
Inboards will show up this year, several of them but we are listening to your request for more designs.


Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

JustRight

Think in terms of requrements

Post by JustRight » Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:21 pm

Think in terms of requrements

Over the years of thinking about building a trailerable sailboat, I began to formulate a set of requirements which formed the basis of selecting a design. Ultimately, these lead to the selection of the Vagabond. As you can see, these requirements are just a little more abstract than what Jacques is suggesting above. To reduce these to a simple numbered list took some thinking on by part and hopefully reduced the chances of a nebulous, and potentially conflicting want list. I tried to phrase each requirement as "testable" so that potential designs could be checked with the requirements for compliance.

Interestingly, when I finished the boat, I went back to check off the result against the requirements. I published both the requirements and my after completion analysis at my web site, Project Just Right. In the second chapter, I went on to discuss the preparation before starting the construction. The web site is not currently available, awaiting restoration of the bateaus server. Check it out when the web site returns.


My requirements:

1. Small, trailerable, performance cruising boat, fun to sail, reasonable range under power, occasional club racing
2. Easy to rig and trailer
3. Normal crew of one or two, occasional day sails with up to four
4. Only two bunks needed
5. Floatation for full displacement (floatation in kayak style buoyancy bags may be counted)
6. Normal storage on trailer in 20'x 8'x 6'10" garage
7. Have feeling of "yacht" interior
8. Sufficiently sea worthy to take on short offshore trips in reasonable weather (California Channel Islands, Baja, Pacific Northwest)
9. Good human factors used in layout
10. Target cost including materials, trailer, outboard, all other parts of $10-12,000

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Post by Gubbs » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:41 am

Or you could just look at her and know you want her, like I did with the GT-23. Sometimes instincts are right on....

anonymous

DE25 changes

Post by anonymous » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:26 pm

Sorry, I read your message about describing the boat we want rather than changes after I sent my message on DE25 modifications.

I live in central Florida on the Harris chain of lakes. These nine lakes connect to canals and rivers that are navigable in all directions to Tampa in the Gulf or the Florida Keys, or the Atlantic in Jacksonville. There are hundreds of miles of waterways. I need a shallow draft and living space comfortable enough to spend a couple of weeks on board. I may also want a cabin that I can economically air condition.

If I remained only on the rivers and small lakes, I could do it very comfortably in a houseboat, but, I would like to be able to move through the keys or offshore a ways (in good weather) in the Atlantic.

I really like the looks of the DE25 and the Trawler28. Only the DE25 has the draft I need and if the modifications I have mentioned are feasible, then I believe it will work very well for me.

Please comment, all suggestions are appreciated.

Bill-Odell

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Post by Leon_Steyns » Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:06 am

OK, I'll give it a try:

Program: fast 2+2 family day boat/camp cruiser for occasional nights on board, easy to build, simple rig (maybe even unstayed - though I personally feel a sailboat needs a main+jib), shallow draft for gunkholing, some form of cabin or tent for shelter/nights, some stowage for gear (even maybe Origo-style burner, simple bucket-style 'sink'), outboard optional, rowing preferable.
Buget: low, something like $5000 top
Material/method: cheap plywood, S&G

Some explanantion, don't get me wrong: I really like my Caravelle and I plan on using and learing her first!!! But through the process of building, some requirement shifts occurred back and forth. Serious accomodations require a big boat, however. This is out of reach for me right now, both financially and practically.

The 2+2 means two adults and two kids maximum. I'm looking for a mooring now, because it takes about half hour to rig the Caravelle from the trailer and that sort of rules out evening sailing... :cry: With a little luck, I could get a cheap mooring within 20min drive from my house.
When it comes to sailboats, I have this persistent preference for a main+jib. Could that be a cultural thing? I do like the gunter rig, because of it's simplicity and the fact that you can use shorter spars. But I also fancy a jib... :doh:
Because of the inland lakes and rivers that I mostly sail on, shallow draft is a must. An open dayboat like the Caravelle has no facilities for a shelter, other than to rig a quick boomtent. This is fine if I need temporary shelter from rain showers, but not for overnight camping. Nothing fancy is needed, but sometimes the rain showers go on for days... :help:
I don't care for headroom, but it would be nice to be able to sit. The Caravelle is very comfortable, particularly when you sit leaning against the cuddy deck on the benches facing aft.

I'm quite intrigued and attracted to Philip Bolger's Birdwatcher concept, having read the Woodenboat #179 article by Mason Smith. What is your opinion on that design?
Greets, Leon Steyns.

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Post by ArizonaBuilder » Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:41 am

Leon,

Except for the rowing aspect, what about the AD16. :)
Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
-- Benjamin Franklin

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Post by Leon_Steyns » Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:20 pm

Hello Terry,

The AD16 is a very nice design, but I would still prefer the SoDuIt! (for which I already own the plans). The SDI! is not "rowable" either. To be honest, I'm lazy enough to admit that I'm most likely to carry an outboard motor (you know, my Seagull! :roll: :lol: ).

But both these designs I'd consider as two-seaters, despite the enormous amount of space in the AD16:
Image

I guess I'm looking for something more unconventional... :doh:
Cost-wise the AD16 fits the bill perfectly, though. Both Adelies are very well thought-of designs!

Good thinking!

By the way: does anyone know what happened to the New Zealand builder who started "Arpita" (a stretched 17' SDI!)? The website is still up, but no changes as far as I can tell (http://www.sigma-services.co.nz/arpita/arpita.html).

[Edited to add:
Come to think of it; Terry, you hit the nail on the head! Both AD14 and AD16 fit my program description... :idea:
So, my boat is already out there... It just took a while for me to realize it... :doh: :P 8O ]
Greets, Leon Steyns.

anonymous

Post by anonymous » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:07 pm

Hey,
Great question!!
I have been looking on all sites with plans, looking for something that fits what I want, so here it goes:

1. 22-24' x 8' (or 8'+) beam
2. Modified vee, for inshore and near shore fishing
3. Center console
4. Front casting deck
5. Full transom that could accept a porta bracket and therefore would be an out board engine
6. Transom cap wide enought to stand on and cast or throw a net
7. Able to accept a console tower
8. Approx. 36" wide console with the ability to flush mount electronics
9. Wide gunwales
10. Plenty of storage
11. Stitch and glue
12. Max of $15k with rigging/engine and all



Wide, stable, roomyMainly West Coat of FL fishing boat.

anonymous

Post by anonymous » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:01 pm

I am looking at building something like your DE25, only problem is I want it in an inboard diesel. Is therre a possibiliy for that? With plenty of space for a small gen set and A/C unit? I live in SW FL and it is hot as hell here in the summer, some comforts would be needed to mae a weekend trip enjoyable. I am looking to run 90 to 100 miles off shore with good weather etc.

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Post by jacquesmm » Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:58 am

The 22 to 24' boat above is our CS23.

We are working on designs with inboard diesels.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

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