P21 options/alterations

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vidar
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P21 options/alterations

Post by vidar » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:20 pm

Hi,

I've been drooling over the P21 for a while now. It is exactly the boat-type and -size I dream of. I've been looking at boats like Hansvik 18 Combi, Hansvik 21 Combi (same boat but 21' and with a separate head), Jeanneu merry fisher marlin 6, and in general pilot house type boats. Production boats is way too expensive for me, even an used one - at least if I'll have to pay 15-25000 USD in one big swoop.

However, the P21 is not perfectly suited for the northern parts of Norway. So here goes:

-can the entry to the cabin be put off center, or widened?
-is it possible to modify the cabin layout with a small enclosed head in front of the helm area, and have a berth on the opposite side? The Örnvik 650 weekend is my inspiration here.
-Optionally: can the "foot well" in the cabin be made longer, creating more like two benches with just a small triangular portion in the front?
-Can the cabin roof be made more or less flat in stead of the rounded design?
-Can the "dashboard" area (in front of the wheel/helm) be altered so that it is flat?
-Can the forward roof support be substituted in any way? I am not that fond of the small, triangular windows. An option could be to add a steel post on both sides in stead of the plywood support?
-Can the pilot house be made longer, sacrificing deck space? I would like to have two seats and a table on the left side.
-Is it possible to fully enclose the pilot house?
-Can the pilot house floor be lowered between the innermost stringers in order to get more headroom?
-Can the pilot house roof be made more flat?
-Can the front of the cabin be made with 3 flat surfaces, like the Hansvik Combi type boats?

I know that I'm asking to get a lot out of 21', but the Hansvik 21 combi and the Örnvik 650 weekend manages to get all this within 21' or 22'.
I do understand that the pilot house will need to be made as light as possible. I am not after speed on the boat. If I can cruise at 20-25 knots, that's more than enough. Even 17-20 knots is fine.

My requirements for my dream boat:

-outboard powered (simpler and cheaper than inboard in the long run), 50-115 HP (fuel economy is important)
-enclosed cabin
-Wallas or Eberspäcer heater
-toilet or portapotti, preferably in a dedicated "room" big enough to be useful - does not need to be "roomy!"
-pilot house style. Visibility is important!
-self-bailing deck suitable for fishing, 2-4 persons (minimum 2, the rest is gravy)
-sink and a Cookmate or Origo spirit stove. I need coffee!

Links to images of the boats I've been looking at:
Örnvik 650 weekend
Hansvik 18 combi
Jeanneu Marlin 6

Perhaps the most important question is: which parts of the pilot house is "NTBCOA" (not-to-be-cut-or-altered) in relation to the hull and the strength (and safety) of the boat, related to my questions?

Is it possible to power the P21 with a 30-40 hp outboard as a start? When I'm out on the sea, I'm in no rush. :) And while I'm saving up for a bigger outboard, a 30 or 40 hp outboard is a dime a dozen and cheap, second hand of course.

If the P21 can be altered (to some degree at least) to suit most of my requirements, I'll be a happy camper. This is my current boat, a Rana 17 DC:
Image

This year, I made the pantry; last year I made the side benches:
Image

It is a great boat, but it does not meet my requirements. As the years go by (33 so far), the level of comfort required has increased. As a small boy, a 14" open boat with a 8hp outboard was all I needed to fill my summers with fishing and fun on the sea. Even in rather heavy waves...
If I can get an enclosed cabin and a portapotti, we're beginning to talk business! :)

Looking forward to your thoughts and inputs on this one. :)

Cheers!


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jacquesmm
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by jacquesmm » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:44 pm

A lot can be done as long as you keep the framing close ot what we show.
See below.
vidar wrote:
-can the entry to the cabin be put off center, or widened?
Yes, easy.

-is it possible to modify the cabin layout with a small enclosed head in front of the helm area, and have a berth on the opposite side? The Örnvik 650 weekend is my inspiration here.
Yes but keep in mind how to open and close the head door.

-Optionally: can the "foot well" in the cabin be made longer, creating more like two benches with just a small triangular portion in the front?
Yes, easy.

-Can the cabin roof be made more or less flat in stead of the rounded design?
Yes but why? A flat roof may collect water.

-Can the "dashboard" area (in front of the wheel/helm) be altered so that it is flat?
No problem.

-Can the forward roof support be substituted in any way? I am not that fond of the small, triangular windows. An option could be to add a steel post on both sides in stead of the plywood support?
You can have a larger window but you must reinforce the corner and keep the roof beam that is above that window post.

-Can the pilot house be made longer, sacrificing deck space? I would like to have two seats and a table on the left side.
Yes, other builders have done that.

-Is it possible to fully enclose the pilot house?
Yes but again think of door opening. A sliding door would work. Keep it light.

-Can the pilot house floor be lowered between the innermost stringers in order to get more headroom?
Yes but . . .
1. the sole will not be self bailing anymore = unsafe.
2. you loose room for the fuel tank.
You have 1,80 m as it is. You can;t walk much in a small boat. Do not overestimate the importance of headroom.
If it is very important to you, you can always raise the roof a little bit.
-Can the pilot house roof be made more flat?
See above and it would be ugly.
-Can the front of the cabin be made with 3 flat surfaces, like the Hansvik Combi type boats?
Yes, easy.
Jacques Mertens - Designer
http://bateau.com

vidar
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by vidar » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:04 pm

WOW! That's a fast reply! :) And with the best answer: "easily"!

Just so that I understand this correctly: the cabin bulkhead is not an essential part of the hull, and as long as I don't mess with the stringers I can modify the bulkhead to a great extent?
Could the left bulkhead wall possibly be eliminated should I want to? One option would be to move the left bulkhead wall forward to make more room for a bench.

Seems like the roof will be raised then. I am 185, and would like at least 190cm headroom in the pilothouse. At least in the "walkway" or center. The helm area and the port side does not need to be that high. In fact, the port side would preferably be raised (should I choose to install two narrow benches and a table) so one get better view when dining. :) Is dinette the correct nautical term here? :)

As for self bailing: Not that important inside the pilot house, since the door threshold will be high off the outside deck floor. For safety, I could mount a vent with a plug so that any water coming into the pilot house / cabin can be drained into the hull, where a bilge pump remove it.
Fuel capability is something to consider, but a 100 liters tank would probably be sufficient for my needs (with a 100hp outboard). That's about the normal capacity on the boats I've been looking at. If I want to go further, I can always bring extra fuel.

The seat boxes - they are not structural, are they?

As for the benches on the port side: I'm thinking of a design where the foremost bench can be swung backwards (the table probably need to be stowed) so that all the passengers sit face forward. I've seen this done in another boat. The backrest is hinged at the floor, and the seat box moves with the backrest. If there is enough space, this brilliant idea (not mine) gives great flexibility. With a longer pilot house, there should be ample space for a sink and a cooker behind the pilot seat.

Am I dreaming here, or is this feasible? I realize that the boat could be a bit cramped, and that I'm trying to get a lot out of 21 feet. But until I have economy and space to build a trawler, I'm going to be very happy anyway.

Thank you for your swift reply, Jacques! I appreciate it!
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by vidar » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:33 pm

Still wants answers to my questions, but an order for the P21 and the OB19 has just been placed. :) It will take a few years before I can start building the P21, but in the meantime I'll continue research, shopping for parts...

I really hate websites like this one. They always get me involved in a lot of work and a lot of money... ;)
There is a fine line between hobby and insanity...

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sds
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by sds » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Welcome aboard Vidar.

Don't feel like you are being ignored if some questions go unanswered for a time. You will find that builders here are enthusiastic, knowledgeable about all aspects of building and boating (not speaking so much about myself here), and very helpful. People really get interested when they start seeing build pictures.

cheers,
Scott

vidar
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by vidar » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:24 pm

No sweat, man. :) I merely pointed out that despite some unanswered questions, I ordered plans for two boats anyway. That's how confident I am in Bateau and this forum.

Really looking forward to making new friends here over the next years. And build images will be posted when I'm starting. I like to share as much as possible of my hobbies, hoping that I can provide inspiration for others building their dream. And I think that is in line with all the wonderful stories shared here.

BTW, thank you for the welcome. Aboard indeed. :D
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by sds » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:28 pm

8)

vidar
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by vidar » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:25 pm

Still thinking and planning... I'm considering building a garage, and the measurements of the garage is based on the required space for my dream boat. Nuts? Yeah. But fun? you bet!

I have the plans for the P21, and have a lot of ideas on how to modify the design to better suit my needs. Last fall, I went to a boat tradeshow / exhibition and looked (drooled) over a few boats - especially the Jeanneu range. And I got a few ideas as well.
Here's my question:

Can I cut the transom height and the bulkhead in front of it on one or both sides? The idea is to add a swim platform on each side of the motor, and have some sort of a door on one side leading out to the swim platform. This will make it easier to enter the boat in the marina. This "entry way" will be in line with the upper edge of the transom where the engine is mounted.

Another option would be to leave the transom as designed, but instead of stowage compartments on each side there could be two seats on each side of the motor well. Since I am planning to extend the pilot house aft, the deck will be smaller. The seats would help a lot, and they could also serve as a step when entering the boat - I'll just add a step to the swim platform.

As for the swim platforms - bolt on or "built in" style? I am considering building the swim platform as an extension of the hull. The platforms won't extend past the engine, and underneath them there could be space for trim flaps should I need them. The main goal of the swim platforms is to serve as an entry point. They will also be handy for motor inspections, bathing, water sports, fishing and so on.

Any thoughts?
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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by BCbuoy » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:46 pm

Hi Vidar--I'm sure that Jacques will chime in on his own, but I know he isn't a big fan of the transom doors. Reading your expectations, I think the DE23 sounds like it fits your requirements a bit better than the P21. I know 2 more feet right?! But it is worth looking at. I've only got 3 sets of plans so far, with no build started yet--if my dear wife would just stop going to school, or having babies for a year or two...Good luck on choosing, and welcome to the site

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Re: P21 options/alterations

Post by Paul&Katie » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:17 pm

Jacques doesn''t like transom doors, but in your case it is possible since you are moving the motorwell height over a couple of feet and then creating a door. This would be the same as doing a dual motor cut out. As long as you keep the door at the same height as the motorwell transom there should be no problem. Make sure you brace both sides of the opening well.

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